iGen: Narcissism and Neuroticism | Dr. Jean Twenge | #303

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Dr. Jean Twenge discuss the often volatile and unhealthy world of internet anonymity, trolling, trait neuroticism, and the effect of technology on our less independent, more narcissistic young adults- now referred to as the “iGen,’’ or “Internet Generation.”

Dr. Jean Twenge is an American psychologist, researcher, and author, first honing her attention on the topics of neuroticism and narcissism in youth, and more recently generational differences. Dr. Twenge is a professor of Psychology at San Diego State University, as well as a public speaker and consultant. She has authored more than 180 scientific publications, as well as numerous books, her most recent being iGen in 2017. She is set to release a new book, Generations, in 2023.

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For Jean Twenge

Dr. Twenge’s Website

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iGen (Book)

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— Chapters —

(0:00) Coming Up
(1:20) Intro
(3:29) The prolongation of childhood
(7:49) The loss of independence
(12:56) The social distance of social media
(19:29) Narcissism and contempt
(23:30) Trait neuroticism
(26:14) Personality characteristics of internet trolls
(30:34) Markers of uniqueness, gender dysphoria
(32:30) The power of online communities
(36:02) Rates of psychopathy
(39:52) iGen and insecurity
(44:29) Faith is falling, meaning is harder to find
(48:33) Trading self-reliance for “emotional safety”
(54:46) Modern parenting values happiness over growth
(56:53) Identity has become all encompassing, and entirely disposable
(1:02:08) Self esteem, a proxy for neuroticism
(1:04:37) Disunity of apprehension: news, politics, facts
(1:07:40) What is to be done?

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Back when Facebook was The prominent Platform for young adults there was a Number of studies on this showing that People who are high in narcissistic Personality traits have more friends on Facebook so what that means is your Average interaction on social media is More likely to be with a narcissist Algorithms on social media tend to Amplify Things that are divisive things that are Angry because they get more what they Call engagement and that’s how the Companies make more money so those tend To be pushed to the top of the of People’s social media feeds you are Getting a relatively small population Who’s dominating this conversation and Kind of ruining for the rest of us well You know I’ve thought for a long time That a lot of the conditions that we Diagnose as psychopathology Aren’t malfunctions let’s say have Evolutionarily adapted structures but More like positive feedback loops that Have gone out of control And so there’s there’s a lot of Pathological processes that are feedback Loops that have got out of control and If the narcissists are garnering excess Attention online and the algorithms are Amplifying that then we have the makings Of something like a virtual social Epidemic

[Music] Thank you Hello everyone I’m pleased today to be Talking with a fellow research Psychologist Dr Jean m twangy is the Author of the recent igen why today’s Super connected kids are growing up less Rebellious more tolerant less happy and Completely unprepared for adulthood she Is Professor of psychology at San Diego State University and the author of more Than 180 scientific Publications and Books Her other published books include Generation me why today’s Young Americans are more confident assertive Entitled and more miserable than ever Before The narcissism epidemic living in the Age of entitlement co-authored with W Keith Campbell The impatient woman’s guide to getting Pregnant Personality psychology understanding Yourself and others co-authored with W Keith Campbell and Social Psychology Co-authored with David G Myers Dr twangy Frequently gives talks and seminars on Teaching And working with today’s Young Generation based on a data set of 11 Million young people her audiences have Included College faculty and staff High School teachers military personnel Camp

Directors and corporate Executives her Research has been covered By time Newsweek the New York Times USA Today U.S news and World Report and the Washington Post and she has been Featured on today Good Morning America CBS This Morning Fox and Friends NBC Nightly News Dateline NBC and National Public Radio Dr twangy holds a ba and M.A from the University of Chicago and a PhD from the University of Michigan she lives in San Diego with her husband and three Daughters I’m very much looking forward To talking to Dr twangy today Particularly about narcissism and online Behavior among young people you Introduced the book who is igen and how Do we know and then talk about chapter One in no hurry growing up slowly that’s The prolongation of childhood and so Tell us about that and also about what You make of it Yeah so Childhood really does last longer now Kids are not as independent and when They get to be teenagers they’re just Less likely to do all of these things That adults do and children don’t do And it’s part of a bigger cultural story And it’s part of what evolutionary Psychologists call a slow life strategy So that means at times and places when People live longer when Healthcare is

Better and when education takes longer To finish parents tend to make the Choice to have fewer children and Nurture them more carefully so that’s a Pretty good description of the way that We raise kids now So you get that kids don’t walk to School by themselves as much and then When they’re teens they are more Reluctant to get their driver’s license Or to go out Um or to date or have a paid job And then by Young adulthood Takes longer for people to settle into a Career and get married and have children And then even older adults affects them Too that 50 is the new 40 and people are Healthy for longer so the entire Trajectory of life is really slowed down And for igen and Generation Z where that Really comes out is that their teen Years are very different from their Gen X parents who remember you know going Out driving around in cars getting in Trouble drinking alcohol all of those Things and their kids don’t do that as Much So do you do you see this as a Prolongation of childhood in a positive Way because people have longer to live Or because of the the cynic in me I Suppose the Freudian too thinks of this As an as a consequence of overprotective Parenting and the inappropriate

Extension of childhood into adolescence And I’m wondering too Um to what degree You talked about improvements in health Care and transformations in technology Longer life span Um To what degree is this also a Consequence of the fact that people are Older when they have children That they have fewer children and that They’re wealthier which all of that Would make them in some sense more Conservative but also in some strange Sense more careful with their children And maybe even more inappropriately Careful and the especially the age of Parents that that’s increased over the Years and the fact that there are fewer Siblings which also seems to me to tie Into your work on narcissism because I Think siblings tend to knock the Narcissism out of each other and so when You don’t have any well you you Definitely are a specialist especially If your parents have been waiting for You for a long time Yeah so it’s definitely a function of People waiting longer to have kids and She said they have more resources and They have fewer children Um because when you think about this Strategy that’s when it happens it Happens when there’s more security and

When everything tends to slow down and When there’s fewer kids just from an Evolutionary perspective then parents Are going to protect them more it’s also You just can’t keep track of them all When there’s a lot of them Um so my my mother comes from a family Like that there were eight children in Her family and a dairy farm in Minnesota And they couldn’t possibly you know have Run their dairy farm and kept track of Every single one of the kids so they Learn how to be independent very early On but you know that was in the 1940s And 50s and that was the standard at the Time even even families with fewer kids It was normal for the children to go and Play and it was be home at dinner or Come home from the street lights come on If you grew up in a more urban setting But that was that was the idea of you Know you kind of let kids Do what they wanted to and that’s Different now and it’s not just from the Parents so I think sometimes if you just Look at other the parents are Overprotective you miss some of the Bigger cultural story that I mean this Has been codified into law in a lot of Places in the state of Illinois you’re Not allowed to leave a child alone until They’re 14 years old which to a gen xer Is ridiculous right so do you see this How do you evaluate this as a

Psychologist do you just see this as a a Part of the normal variation in Parenting Behavior as a consequence of Technological transformation or do you See something Something that’s permanently affecting People’s capability of maturing you know I think it’s some of both Um it is part of Technology certainly That all of these causes are rooted in Technology Better Health Care education Taking longer for a more complex society And more knowledge that pushes toward That slow life strategy Um so it’s an adaptation it’s an Adaptation to a particular place and Time so there’s trade-offs neither a Slow life strategy or a fast life Strategy is all good or all bad There are some clear advantages the kids Are not growing up as fast most parents Are thrilled that not as many teens are Having sex or drinking alcohol But there is the downside the downside Is that we have a generation growing to Adulthood who doesn’t have as much Experience with Independence And it’s difficult often for them to Make decisions on their own so when I Travel around the universities this is What I hear very consistently I have More and more students who can’t make Even simple decisions without texting Their parents and to take the

Perspective of this Young Generation too Which I think is important it makes Sense it’s you know this is not Necessarily how they ask to be raised This is the culture that they grew up in And they arrive at University with Without those experiences of of making Those decisions and it’s really really Hard for them to do that and to make That adjustment so that’s the big Downside so that’s where I think you Know as you said you can be more of a Cynic or or a Critic and say you know This is definitely not all good I do Hesitate to use the word maturity though Because is it more mature or less mature To drink alcohol when you’re 17. it’s Really neither one so I think it’s Better to focus on That it’s slower development not Necessarily better not necessarily worse But slower yeah well there were there Were studies of alcohol use I remember Conducted when I was studying alcohol Several decades ago looking at Um let’s say life outcomes among Teenagers as a consequence of their Proclivity to break rules And the findings basically were that and This is probably what you’d expect is That the kids who broke no rules were Much more likely to be dependent Depressed and anxious and the kids that Broke too many rules were much more

Likely to be anti-social Right and criminal and so there’s a There’s a a sweet spot in the middle Like there is so often where a certain Amount of experimentation is exactly What you’d hope for and the question Would be if the proclivity of young People to drink less alcohol and I mean Alcohol is pretty damn toxic it’s a bad Drug All Things Considered is a nap good Because they’re delaying their Experimentation that’s probably Neurologically healthy at least with Regards to the effects of alcohol but if It means that they’re doing less Experimentation in general then that the Question is what the long-term Consequences are I mean if it’s only a Delayed maturation then in some sense it Doesn’t make that much difference but if It’s a permanent abdication of Maturation and that’s a completely Different issue and you also mentioned Cell phones and texting parents I mean One of the ways that people learn to Make decisions before there were cell Phones is that they didn’t really have a Choice because if you were away from Your parents in a car you are actually Away unless you could get to a pay phone Let’s say but even then that wasn’t Necessarily all that likely and you’d Have to go search one out and so you Were on your own it wasn’t just but you

Were acting like it and now because You’re connected all the time with this Electronic tether especially I would say If your parents are somewhat anxious Then well under what circumstances Should you make your own decisions and That was never a choice before and those Sorts of things become problematic when They become a choice yeah no I I agree I Mean that’s that’s the other piece that Technology plays and it is yeah you know Even when you’re at University you can Constantly contact your parents in a way That didn’t used to be possible And the other part of it too And this gets to some of the other Trends in the book is that socializing For teens has moved online And so you think about a lot of those Things on that list that adults do and Children don’t where a lot of them Involve getting out of the house and Hanging out with friends and getting in A car usually to go be with other people And that doesn’t happen as much now Because the party is on Snapchat or on Instagram so that’s the other way that Technology is playing a role is there’s So much more interaction online and less Face to face While today’s cups of coffee often come With hints of soy and social justice our New coffee sponsor delivers an entirely Different experience it’s bold strong

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Reaction I don’t think it’s Unique to me And the reaction I have often is Something like When an anonymous troll posts something Particularly caustic I think if you Dared say anything like that to me to my Face even once there would be so much Trouble surrounding you immediately that You can hardly imagine it but online you Know there is this social distancing Phenomena that’s well known to social Psychologists and personality Psychologists that if you’re even if You’re in your car and thereby Uh sheltered let’s say from immediate Interpersonal feedback you’re much more Likely to act in a self-centered and Self-aggrandizing manner because you Miss that immediate feedback and there’s Absolutely no consequence whatsoever to Behaving in a narcissistic and Self-centered manner online as far as I Can tell and Um Then that tends to promote especially For people who are rather disinhibited To begin with that promotes a kind of Self-aggrandizing narcissism that is out Would be absolutely Unthinkable in real Life and then you wonder well if that’s Happening all the time online how much Of that becomes a habitual mode of Thought and what do you think about Well you know it’s classic social

Psychology right that when people are Anonymous they’re much more likely to be Aggressive you know physically verbally And so absolutely that’s that’s one of The primary issues or challenges with Online interaction is we’re not face to Face we can’t see the look on the other Person’s face when we say something Caustic or you know highly critical or Insulting So because we did if you have any Modicum of social skills you wouldn’t do That so it’s not a real-time back and Forth and you’re not you’re not um Seeing those facial expressions and so You know all that is lost and so it Becomes contentious much more quickly it Becomes negative much more quickly Aggressive you know all of that goes on It’s just kind of the way that the Interaction goes and Is that narcissism per se I’m not sure I Would label it that way exactly it’s It’s more that it’s Anonymous and thus It frees people to just go with their Base impulses especially around Aggression well especially you’d think It would free people who are prone to Have those proclivities to do that as Well and I also think that that’s more True of people who Harbor a fair bit of Resentment and who are relatively Cowardly because if they’re resentful Well then they’re going to be looking

For the opportunity to to use derision In particular like I’ve noticed on YouTube the markers for pathological Behavior seem to me to be quite clear The first marker is an anonymous account And I think those are appalling the Social media company should have know Your customer laws like Banks do and They should put the damn Anonymous Trolls into their own pit of Hell you Know and shouldn’t be mixed in with the Real people and then often the worst Anonymous accounts have a demonic Sounding name And so there’s something about the name That is is derisive or often literally Demonic they pick some moniker that’s Appalling in in the most fundamental Metaphoric way and then they tend to use Derisive nicknames and acronyms like Laugh out loud or LMFAO or WTF there’s These this casual use of derision and Contempt you know there’s a there’s Great study done I don’t remember who did it Unfortunately looking at predictors of Marital break up as a consequence of Interpersonal interaction between the Pairs of a couple and the best predictor Of imminent marital breakup was Eye-rolling so the manifestation of Contempt what’s that John gottman yeah that’s right gottman Gortman yeah yeah and so it’s that it’s

That use of contempt in particular you Know and I also I read Hitler’s table Talk And that’s a collection of his Spontaneous speeches at meal Times Aggregated by his secretarial staff over About four years and I was looking at Descriptive uh term usage trying to Understand his thought processes and It’s pretty damn obvious that Hitler Wasn’t afraid of the Jews or the other People that he conducted genocide Against his fundamental Um emotional attitude towards such People was derisive contempt and disgust There’s something particularly toxic About disgust and contempt and there’s Something about online commentary in Particular that really brings that Forward and then you have the other Problem I would say too which is that in Some sense ever the online world and That this is the world that the IGN kids Are immersed in is a it’s a faux Celebrity world Right because everyone online in some Sense is a celebrity of different Proportions they have their followers They have their fans let’s say and then The whole Enterprise seems to Um facilitate image management I know on I think it’s tick tock there are real Time Facial feature adjustment filters so

That you can make this girls use them More than boys for obvious reasons you Can make your lips plumper you and red Or you can make your eyes bigger you can Anim yourself you can you can cutify Yourself to to kind of a terrible term And you can do that in real time and All of the or much of the reinforcement Pressure seems to be directed towards Attention seeking and then that combined With the fact that there are almost no Consequences for misbehavior seem to Produce a pretty first of all a toxic Social environment but also one that Doesn’t follow the same rules as actual Face-to-face contact which I think is The bigger Danger And an economy as volatile as this one It’s important to have control when You’re making a big purchase like a new Car that’s where cars in comes into play Carzing is completely changing the way You buy a car online an online car Shopping website with millions of listed Vehicles carzing works with over 25 000 Dealers Nationwide to help you find your Dream car by partnering with Credit Agencies lenders and dealerships karzing Provides you with everything you need Before stepping foot into a dealership Their mission is to make auto financing Quick and easy while providing a modern Hassle-free way of shopping for cars Their Innovative technology and

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Is really what it became for igen around The early 2000s 2010s I mean When you know almost 80 percent 85 or so Of high school students were doing that Every single day on social media Then and everybody’s participating well Not everybody can get attention So then it becomes this competition So it I think at that point became less About narcissism for most people and More about not Measuring Up And that’s right and that’s where so That’s when you start to get I I have to Use these enhancement filters because I Don’t look as good as everybody else Online and I must be you know Unattractive because I don’t have as Many likes and followers as I want to Have Um and then all of the other things I’m Not interacting with someone face to Face I’m not getting the same emotional Connection and that people are Automatically more negative and hostile I mean there’s just there’s so many Things going on in that online Interaction Um once especially once it became Mandatory that pulled not even really For narcissism but more for anxiety and Depression right right so maybe that’s Part of the reason that you’ve been Picking up these and and uh indicating These increases in mental health

Symptoms among young people well the Other thing I’m wondering about too I’ve Thought about this to a great degree is That I studied anti-social behavior in boys And girls and boys they’re pretty much Straightforward juvenile delinquents When they’re anti-social they they kick And and and and fight and and steal and Break rules and it’s a lot of Externalizing behavior right a lot of Acting out but girls who are anti-social They use reputation destruction and Innuendo and gossip and backbiting and They can be unbelievably good at it and Everyone knows that I mean mean girls That famous movie was about precisely That and the thing about social media That’s one of the things about it that’s Quite interesting and disturbing is that Female type anti-social Behavior scales Brilliantly on online Because it can be done behind the scenes It can be done anonymously it can be Done with that there is of contempt Let’s say and the consequences are Vanishingly small and so I can imagine That teenage girls who are often subject To bullying by other girls are now Subject to bullying in a way that’s much More subtle and much more devious and Much more continuous because that’s the Other thing that happens to young people Now is can you imagine being a teenager

Where nothing you ever did would be Forgotten All right right and it’s it’s 24 7. it’s Always with you because that’s way the Way they communicate with their friends That is the lifeline to the world and so It used to be maybe you got bullied at School you could come home and get away From it and now there’s no no there’s no Escape Um and it is particularly toxic for Girls I mean think about Instagram Instagram at base is a platform where Primarily girls and young women post Pictures of themselves and ask other People to comment Jesus you know brutal Right it absolutely is brutal and Popularity becomes a number likes and Followers uh and cyber bullying all the Things that we’re talking about just it Is a toxic suit well I remember you know We we did uh psychometric analysis and And looked at the psychometric analysis Of thought patterns that loaded on trait Neuroticism And so as you know well but I’ll explain To everyone else trait neuroticism is Something like your Baseline level of The proclivity to experience negative Emotion like depression and anxiety and One of the things that’s quite striking Is that self-conscious thoughts load so Heavily on your autism they’re almost Indistinguishable from emotions and so

It looks like if you’re self-conscious If you’re thinking about yourself you Are instantly miserable And then if you’re a teenage then it Gets worse for teenage girls I think Because we also know that Teenage girls experience a spike in Neuroticism that’s a tenant on puberty And that their self-conscious concerns Tend to be particularly body focused And that’s probably a consequence of the Fact that females are evaluated more Stringently as a consequence of their Appearance particularly when they’re Young I mean men are evaluated on the Basis of their performance let’s say but Women tend to be evaluated more on the Basis of their appearance and so you can See that’s a perfect storm for young Girls because they hit a negative Emotion Peak at 13. now they’re Susceptible to bullying they’re Extremely self-conscious about their Bodies and then the entire online world Is a place to display for public it’s Like the old nightmare that people have About public speaking is being naked on A stage that’s really in some real sense What the social media world has done to Teenage girls it’s it it’s it’s got to Be damn near unbearable Yeah and that the consequences have have Been severe Um so teen depression

Has doubled and that was true even Before the pandemic the rise started uh About 2011 or 2012 right as social media Moved from optional to mandatory and Right when smartphones were owned by the Majority of people uh loneliness went up Anxiety went up Um and it’s not just symptoms Self-harm Behavior so the CDC Keeps track of this emergency room Visits for self-harms that’s an Objectively measured Behavior not Something subject to any kind of Self-report bias and self-harm among 10 To 14 year old girls has quadrupled in The last 12 years yeah yeah yeah well That’s that’s a logical extension of Feelings of inadequacy and depression And anxiety no no a non-specific marker Now you mentioned earlier also and I Thought this was very interesting a Couple of things I wanted to touch on The first was that you indicated that There was some research on Anonymous Trolls and their personality Characteristics and then you also said That the self-aggrandizing element of The web of web presence was spearheaded In some sense by the narcissists but Then once it became mandatory it was More of a catch-up game for people who Were experiencing fairly high levels of Neuroticism something like that so let’s Start with the research because I’m very

Interested in the trolls because I think I think one of the the things the trolls Are doing online by the use of derision And contempt in the manner that they do Spew It Forward especially on platforms Like Twitter you see it also on YouTube And other platforms is that they raise The ambient social temperature to a Great degree it’s it’s like a Externalized pollution in the real world It’s it’s psychological pollution they Say things that no one can should Possibly be allowed to get away with in The public forum they spew their venom Forward and it makes everything appear More polarized and caustic than it Really is and so who are these people The anonymous trolls as far as the Research indicates well I mean the Narcissism does have a good amount to do With it so Um back when Facebook was The prominent Platform uh for young adults there was a Number of studies on this showing that People who are high in narcissistic Personality traits have more friends on Facebook and they comment there more and They participate more so what that means Is your average interaction on social Media is more likely to be with a Narcissist Um not and the majority maybe but it UPS The odds compared to your average Conversation face to face so those are

Platforms where narcissists Thrive Um and you’re absolutely right that They’re the ones who are willing to say Those things and we know now how too That the algorithms on social media tend To amplify Things that are divisive things that are Angry because they get more what they Call engagement that’s what people Engage with more and that’s how the Companies make more money so those tend To be pushed to the top of the of People’s social media feeds so you are Getting a relatively small population Who’s dominating this conversation and Kind of I don’t know how else to put it But ruining for ruining for the rest of Us well you know I’ve thought for a long Time that a lot of the conditions that We diagnose as psychopathology Aren’t malfunctions let’s say have Evolutionarily adapted structures that Was one definition that cropped up a Fair while ago but more like positive Feedback loops that have gone out of Control So you see this with uh With uh agoraphobia right people start To withdraw instead of approaching when They’re anxious and that makes their Anxiety worse so they’re more likely to Withdraw you see it with depression Because depressed people are less likely To interact socially and then they start

To withdraw and that makes them more Depressed they’re less likely to go to Work and so forth you see it with Alcohol because people who develop Alcohol tolerance start to drink to cure Their hangover And so there’s there’s a lot of Pathological processes that are feedback Loops that have gone out of control and If the narcissists are garnering excess Attention online and the algorithms are Amplifying that then we have the makings Of something like a virtual social Epidemic and it does look like that to Me I’m trying to understand what’s Driving the polarization and Divisiveness and I do think that I think A lot of it’s virtual in some real sense Because The the online world in the real world Have become so dissociated and so Distinct that they don’t even look like The same place anymore you see that with Media but you also see it with the Things that are so Troublesome to people Online that don’t seem to make Themselves manifest in the real world at All so we’ve got this weird divorce That’s a consequence of this layer of Abstraction that’s the online world and It’s producing its own Associated Pathologies that that rise in Self-destructive Behavior that’s Absolutely that’s cataclysmically awful

Let me add another bit of pathology to This tell me what you think of this so You know of course that there’s been a Absolute explosion in childhood gender Dysphoria and uh it made sense to me That that occurred because we added Confusion to the definition of male and Female let’s say and when you confuse People you confuse the most confused the Most and that often tends to be young Girls around 13 and they’re the ones That are prone to psychogenic epidemics And they’re the ones that are Experiencing much higher rates than Normal of so-called gender dysphoria Now I’m curious about your uh thoughts On that in relationship to attention Seeking because if we took that group of The the more neurotic catch-up players On social media they need a marker of Uniqueness or status in order to attract Attention to themselves and it seems to Me that this emphasis on Multi-dimensional sexual identity Provides an easy Avenue to the kind of Uniqueness that might scale well on Social media does that does any of that Make any sense to you is that a Reasonable hypothesis well it’s really Hard because these Trends are so new and We don’t yet have uh you know really Solid statistics it’s actually something That I worked on for for my new book so I’ll be able to talk about that a little

Bit more Um next year because like that has to be The first step is we have to say is this Actually increasing because it certainly Seems that way but we need that that Data to figure that out uh and then the Why question is an even harder one to Answer uh because some of course have Made the argument that well there’s more Acceptance now and so that’s why you Know there are more people who are who Are coming out as as transgender Um but there is the whole question Um which I think is a good we have to Explore it at least about what is the Role of um the online communities in This because there are some folks who Have said it’s it’s a positive thing That The thing about online communities is if You’re in a relatively unique group you Can find other people like you and then That can be beneficial Um but there are some who argue that That may not be as as beneficial Um and I it’s it’s just so early I think We just don’t really know it’s probably Beneficial if the group that you’re Pursuing is pursuing beneficial aims That are part of your character like if You have a particular creative Proclivity or a particular interest in a Set of ideas and you can find a group That will support you in that that’s not

Much different than what happens to kids Who are smart when they go off to University if universities are working Properly but if you’re anorexic and you Find a community that’s devoted to Ensuring that you do think that you’re Fat and helping you figure out ways to Restrict your food and normalizing that Then obviously that’s not helpful at all Quite the contrary and so and and it it Is a peculiar fact that out Statistically unlikely proclivities can Be normalized very rapidly online as a Consequence of the generation of Community because as you know we tend to Um re regard ourselves in relationship To the peer group the immediate peer Group that we formulate around us and so If you’re one in ten thousand in your Peculiarity but you have 20 people Around you who are the same it’s going To feel pretty damn normal pretty quick And if you’re truly exceptional that’s a Good thing but a lot of what constitutes Truly exceptional exceptional is uh is Manifested on the pathological side and And well and and we don’t know the Consequence of community building on That front yet I think that’s that’s Correct that Um in general what the internet allows People to do is to create those Communities based on some of these uh Unique identities and that can be used

For good Um so a gay kid in a small town who Doesn’t know anybody else like them can Find a community But then on the other hand someone who Wants to be anorexic and encourage other Young girls and young women to be Anorexic they can also find each other And that has some pretty negative Consequences right well and there’s also The facilitation of online predation as A consequence of of their responsibility That anonymity allows too so if you are An isolated young person and you’re Searching around for an identity group You’re just quite nicely likely to run Into somebody who’s psychopathically Predacious online as well and that Happens in no small uh percentage of Cases I’ve known a number of adolescents Who got tangled up with someone pretty Damn nasty online much to their parents Chagrin And so and that’s especially true on the Sexual exploitation front yes and and That’s primarily because social media is So unregulated so there’s there’s no age Verification for example you could be 36 And say that you’re 13. you can be nine And say that you’re 16 or 13 to be able To get an account you’re supposed to be 13 to get a social media account but It’s not enforced so there’s very young Children who are on it and then adults

And children can communicate with each Other and that has led Unfortunately yeah to a lot of sexual Predation and other really unfortunate Situations yeah well you know we could Think about this from an evolutionary Biology perspective I think for a moment Or two that might be interesting so I Know that uh the rates of psychopathy Appear to vary between about one and Five percent cross-culturally and so I Talked to David Buss about various Theories about that Um that percentage and so the first Observation is it’s actually not very Effective to be a power mad psychopath Right so 95 to 97 of people aren’t and The reason for that is it’s really not a Very effective strategy you even have to Run away from yourself eventually if You’re a psychopath and they tend to Have itinerant Lifestyles because people Caught on to their narcissistic Machiavellianism sooner or later and Then can identify them now it might be More useful biologically speaking to be A predatory psychopath than to be Someone who’s so depressed and isolated That they never go out of the house So you could think about it as a a Strategy of a reproductive strategy that Doesn’t always culminate in failure and That’s especially true because young Women are less likely to be able to

Distinguish Psychopathic Predators from Confident and competent males So okay so you you open up a window for Psychopathy and then the windows opened Up too because most people are Cooperative and productive and generous At least in the main but what that means Is that a small percentage of people can Capitalize on that by mimicking it and The Psychopaths mimic that by being Confident and assertive and appearing Competent even though they’re predators And and and parasitic in their Fundamental orientation now Those people that one to five percent Present an unbelievable constant danger To the Integrity of societies right if It doesn’t take that many people to Destabilize a complex society and Certainly three percent is more than Enough and normally the psychopaths are Kept under some regulatory control Because they get identified and isolated And and punished but I don’t think that Happens online And so it’s I don’t know to what degree The look Psychopaths don’t learn from Punishment very well at all and they Don’t learn from threat very well at all But online all of that’s been removed There’s nothing but a field of Opportunity for predatory Psychopaths And so I wonder to what degree Virtualizing communication and opening

Up this hypothetically Democratic front Has actually magnified the degree to Which our societies are susceptible to Disruption by Machiavellian Psychopaths That is absolutely possible because yeah I mean there’s there’s the trolls and All of those folks who um you know get Into those situations They too often absolutely get away with That um you know I think some people Might argue that well they might get Lots of negative comments and you know Sometimes they do get punished or or Canceled but it’s not usually the way it Goes because yeah they have a lot of Tricks Um they can they can be Charming they Can fake their way through it and they Do often get away with a lot just Partially because things are so Unregulated it’s the Wild Wild West well They can also generate multiple Identities so even if one of their Identities gets published punished well First of all they’re not likely to be Very affected by negative feedback to Begin with especially not of the Psychological sort because the typical Psychopath doesn’t give a damn what you Think like they might they might react With some degree of surprise if you Actually hit them but if you just said Something that might disturb a person With with normal uh conscience let’s say

The Psychopaths is going to brush that Off and so so true yeah yeah so okay so Let’s go through a little bit more about What about about igen you talked about Insecure the new Mental Health crisis And also irreligious irreligious Losing My Religion and spirituality so let’s Talk about insecurity to begin with and So we we discussed that a little bit are There other elements that are making so So kids can’t Everything they do is remembered Everything they do is monitored they’re Tethered to their parents 100 of the Time they’re glued to a screen they’re Not engaging in face-to-face social Contact the way they were they don’t Have their independence are there other Factors as far as you can tell that are Rendering the more insecure well for one Thing they’re not sleeping enough Um and the percentage of teens who don’t Get enough sleep started to rise and Again right at the time that social Media became common and smartphones Became common right around 2012 and Right before the pandemic reached All-time highs in two different surveys So when you don’t sleep enough that’s a Major risk factor for developing Depression and self-harm and it’s not Just the the timing not just that the Timing lines up with uh with technology It’s also that kids are spending so much

Time Um that on their online that it crowds Out time for sleeping and looking at a Phone before bed or having it in your Bedroom is uniquely awful for getting a Good night’s sleep and for getting Enough sleep you know tons of sleep lab Studies that that’s the case and is that A life issue Part of it yeah so there’s like there’s A couple things going on so you know one Is if you have that phone in your Bedroom overnight that you part of your Brain knows it’s there Um and pretty much what I was writing The book pretty much every young person I talked to said that they had their Phone within Arm’s Reach when they were Sleeping uh and they they almost all of Them said well I have to have it in my Room because that’s my alarm clock and I Would reply then buy an alarm clock You can buy it on Amazon on your phone And then put it away and get a good Night’s sleep Um but before bed there’s two elements First psychological stimulation pretty Much everything that we do on phones and Tablets is stimulating you know whether It’s reading news or shopping or email Or texting and then imagine being 12 Years old and you’re waiting for your Crush to text you back you know not Relaxing thoughts right and then the

Light issue that the blue light from the Devices especially when held close to The face tricks our brains into thinking That it’s still daytime and then we Don’t produce enough melatonin the sleep Hormone to fall asleep quickly and get a Good night’s sleep so there’s so many Different factors in the way that Technology is disrupting sleep and that May be a major mechanism for why we have Such a high rate of uh depression and Truly a mental health crisis among Adolescents and do you have any idea What the relative strength of these Contributors are we talked about the Necessity to put forward a false and Perfect face we talked about the Possibility of being bullied online that Things can’t be forgotten and now we had A really a biological element to this Which is sleep disruption as a Consequence of the potential for new Information Excitement before bed in in the form of Exposure to all these pathological Social Tendencies we already described And exposure to Blue Light is there any Research at all that’s parsing out the Relative contributions of these Different factors to the rise in Depression and anxiety It’s a great question and I don’t think We really know I mean what we have is More individual level correlational data

Which is going to have some different Factors in those generational and group Trends Um but sleep definitely has the largest Correlation With depression and unhappiness um you Know among those factors but it also of Course depends on the individual because For some kids yeah they may have that Phone away from them at night but then If they’re getting bullied and feel Terrible about their body all day long That can also have those severe Consequences so Um it’s hard to say well those things Tend to Loop too so many many things can Contribute to sleep disruption and then Once sleep gets disrupted well then all Those other things tend to get worse and Now it’s all a downhill spiral so yeah So that that’s that’s uh that’s rough Too uh unexpected consequences of Technological innovation especially on The light front yeah that’s a rough one You talked about irreligious and Losing My Religion and spirituality and so Um that’s an interesting that’s an Interesting measurement let’s say or an Interesting issue to focus on and so Tell me about the significance of that Yeah so you know we’ve known for a while That the number of people who affiliate With a religion or attend religious Services has gone down especially among

Teens and young adults but for there Were kind of these series for a while Like okay well young people are not as Interested in institutions and joining a Group so that’s why that’s gone down but Privately they still pray and believe in God well as of about 15 years ago that Also started to go down so that theory Had to be discarded because even private Religious beliefs started to decline Then you got the theory of oh well They’re not really just but they’re more Spiritual the data doesn’t back that one Up either from the surveys that number Of people say that they’re a spiritual Person has stayed fairly constant even Well than there were people saying their Religious has gone way down and then Among University students fewer say that They feel like they’re above average in Spirituality so not religious not Particularly spiritual either and you Get a decline in the a number of young People who say that finding a meeting And purpose in life is important that Developing a meaningful philosophy of Life is important so all of these Intrinsic things These intrinsic values and goals have Become less important those all seem to Be medium to long-term goals right so to Develop a purpose in life to develop a Philosophy of life to aim at an Integrated spirituality and one of the

Things that the web does particularly Well is capitalize on short-term Attentional uh uh well let’s just call It short-term attention right it’s the Next heart thing it’s like it’s like It’s the it’s the 24-hour news cycle in Some sense broken down into 30 second Bits And so and you can distract yourself Endlessly with those sorts of things I Mean I’m saying this too obviously as a Prolific creator of more long-form Content but we use tick tock and Instagram in these shorter forms as well To communicate with but you can you can Certainly feed yourself on a steady diet Of 15 to 30 second clips and they are Engaging in the moment it’s like a Non-Stop procession of personalized ads In some real sense and it often is ads And so that seems to be happening at the Expense of these medium to long-term Commitments that might be indicative of Maturity and adulthood and spirituality Religious orientation civic duty all of That Maybe that’s contributing to that Immaturity as well a the maintenance of That short-term attention because that’s That’s the experience so many people Have online especially in platforms like Tick Tock uh you know you’re just Watching all of these short videos and

Then before you know it an hour has gone By an hour of your life you’re not going To get back and it is just that what’s Immediate and you have to respond to Your friend’s post right away and make a Comment or say that you like it and it’s All of that immediacy that isn’t really Focused on on on the long term in a way Which you know is is funny because in Other ways this generation igen or Generation Z has been taught to focus on The long term so they’re not doing that On their phones but then in terms of Goals around careers and going to College and university and all of those Things they do focus on that and they’ve It’s been ingrained in them that they Have to be long-term planners and make Sure that they’re thinking about each Step of of their lives Um so they have that disconnect between What adults are telling them to do for The plans for their life and then what The way that they’re living online Right right So and then insulated but not intrinsic More safety and less Community what does That mean So the safety piece was interesting Because when I first started the book Um it wasn’t something that was really On my radar screen but the more I talked To you Um young people in this generation and

The more Um I looked at what had really changed In society Safety was a major Ranger theme that Kept coming up over and over and again There’s trade-offs the upside is that There’s been so much emphasis on the Safety of children and teens that That’s worked a lot for your teens Getting car accidents or any kind of of Uh injuries Um same thing with with children all of These safety things that we put in place Have really done a good job Um but it’s not just protecting kids From physical dangers that society’s Focused on in many ways it has shifted To also protecting kids from having Experiences from being upset from Failure from all of these learning Experiences from Adventure Yeah from absolutely from taking risks And what’s really interesting is jensy Has not rebelled against that which is What you might expect you know Adolescence to do they have embraced it So they are less likely to say they want To take risks say when they’re when They’re 60 and 15 years old what Happened to Deliciousness like that That’s such a pronounced characteristic Of being a teenager you also touched on That when you mentioned that so many

Fewer kids are getting their driver’s License and that was just Incomprehensible to me when I first Became aware of it because I remember When I was 14 15 every single person I Knew was just absolutely they were lined Up outside the driver’s license office Like an hour before their birthday to Get their license that was that was top Of the priority and part of that was to Be able to get away and to be autonomous And so I can’t how why do you think that That Spirit of adolescent rebelliousness Has vanished to such a great degree yeah It’s there’s a lot of different factors But you know a lot of it is just that Has been the way that Society has Shifted in so many ways is placing Safety as the top priority not just Physically but also in gen Z in Particular I still talk about this Emotional safety so and many of them Told me that they thought emotional Safety was just as important as physical Safety that that was one of the reasons They were scared of social interactions Because you never know what someone Might say to you into a gen xer like me And I was like well yeah that’s how it Works but they’re used to texting and Being able to compose their response and To not have to worry about the look on Their face when they read what someone Else you know has said so that’s one

Factor that that comes in there and then It is also just with the slow life Strategy and other changes Um in parenting and in culture in General in how we treat young people That Yes it’s good that we have tried to Protect them from a lot of these dangers But we have also coddled them in some Ways that has done them a real Disservice that we have not prepared Them for adulthood that we have not let Them take as many risks and learn from That and have adventure and all those Things well that risk of direct Communication is an interesting one I Heard a comedian in in in UK at a free Speech comedy event who said that she Had gone to uh a university to do a Comedy show and they gave her a list of Topics that were off Limits which is a hell of a thing to do To a comedian and then not only that They gave all the student attendees These Badges and if the badge were green If the badge was green that you were Wearing then other people could talk to You without your permission including The comedian but if you didn’t have a Green badge yeah no kidding but and I Didn’t have any I thought that was Pathological beyond comprehension but It’s so protective that it’s it’s Positively eatable but you know you you

Just put your finger on something Interesting which is if if you’re Accustomed to being able to formulate Your response thoughtfully you’re doing That by text for example then the Immediacy of interpersonal contact might Be off-putting to you like I mean I Don’t know how isolated the kids are who Only use their phones I’m sure do we Know for example if this is more true of Introverted kids like are they Introverted neurotics even more likely To use their phone and text instead of Engaging in any face-to-face interaction Well maybe but then on the other hand Extroverts send more texts because they Have more social interactions and social Relationships and General so there’s Some kind of cross currents there that Might be hard to tease out but the Neuroticism piece that would make sense More likely maybe to text than say you Have a phone conversation where that Might be more anxiety provoking chapter Eight is uh income insecurity working to Earn but not to show up and you talk a Bit about shopping in in the in the IGN Book about the fact that that also feeds Into this self-centeredness in some Sense that money is for it’s it’s Consumerism going mad and of course That’s promoted Um by the social media networks that are Monetizing teenage attention

And you said that teenagers are also Much less likely to have To be engaged in gainful employment Which was obviously a step towards Maturation for many people in previous Generations or maybe the actual Catalyst For maturation Apart from relationships yeah and They’re less likely to get an allowance As well so when you don’t have a job and You don’t have an allowance and you’re Not learning how to manage your own Money so it’s more that your parents Will give you money and so that’s Another aspect where they’re not Learning as much about how to make Decisions is around money yeah well it’s Very this brings up the issue in some Sense of optimal deprivation eh you have Older parents you have fewer siblings Your parents in some sense care more for You you might even in some way have a Closer relationship with them but then The question is is it too close but How do you deprive your children Properly under such circumstances so That they’re motivated to go do things On their own and again when that becomes A choice it’s very difficult to say no All the time when you could be saying Yes It’s the Dilemma of modern parenting and I think where that comes up often the Most is around technology so it’s not

Just in mom you know I want to buy this Thing or the other thing Um I think a lot I have I have three Kids myself two of whom are teenagers And what I know from my fellow parents As well as my own experience is that There’s always I want that I want the Smartphone and I want the I want this Social media app and why can’t I do it Because everybody else is doing it yeah Yeah and that that’s the dilemma and Modern parenting is supposed to be well I want to make my kids happy And usually you think it’s going to be Easier to make them happy by saying yes But then if you say yes to some of these Sayings what’s going to happen is all The all the potential consequences that We’ve been talking about but it’s Difficult because of course not Everybody is going to have the very Negative outcome some people are going To be on social media and be fine but You don’t know which your kid is which Bucket your kid’s going to end up in Until they use it So then if you’re the cautious parent Who says I’m not going to get my kid a Phone until she’s 16 or 18. Gonna be the only one in a high school Of 1500 people who doesn’t have one and Same thing with social media so it’s a Very difficult dilemma right now as the Parent the parent of of teenagers

Chapter nine is inclusive LGBT gender And race issues in the new age when I When I first read Sections of this chapter I thought well This strikes me as as Predictable in some sense given the Virtualization of everything you know One of the things that being online Allows you to do Is to experiment with different Identities that are disposable but and That are virtual and then I also thought That to the degree that Childhood is being extended and maybe Interfered with especially at the early Stages when pretend plays should be Occurring and there’s so much screen Time that experimentation with identity Which is a form of play might be being Extended out into adolescence and Further on so you get virtualization and The extension of fantasy play it’s not Surprising to me that igen young people Would be What would you describe it as uh very Open in relationship to their proclaimed Identity especially also if they’re Earning attention points for announcing A non-standard identity and also having No other identity to replace it with in Some real sense well I think there’s a Lot of other factors at work here too Because of course um you know these These these Trends have been going on

For longer so as opposed to say some of The mental health Trends which really Didn’t start to appear until 2012. Um the rise and say Um support for same-sex marriage and the Embrace of uh LGBT identities that’s Been building for a longer time so we See that also you know even for Gen xers And and Millennials that that’s been you Know rolling out for for quite a long Time so I think it’s also a function of Individualism And that was a major theme in generation Me my book on the Millennials and it Still is a different flavor for igen or Gen Z but it’s it’s absolutely still Present that we have the growth in um You know North American culture that’s Always been individualistic but has Become much more so especially since the Late 1960s so more focus on the self Less focus on social rules and what you Get with individualism is the acceptance Of difference and that people will be Who they are and so that I think is that It’s also a natural consequence of more Individualism that you will get more Acceptance Um of different sexual orientations all Right well it’s a strange individualism Though because it’s it’s based again on What you might describe is maximization Of short-term identity So the claim is I can be whoever I want

And all all social regulation of that is Nothing but an imposition which is Really not true at all because most of The time following social principles Allows you to form relationships with Other people and opens up Horizons of Opportunity to you that’s that’s the Benefit of sacrificing not exactly Individuality but short-term individual Whim and it’s something that children Learn as they mature right they can’t Get everything they want right now but The payoff for that is that they can get Along with other people and that things Work better over the long run and that All That that I would say understanding that And then abiding by that principle of Medium to long-term well-being is Something like maturation and this Individualism that you’re describing Isn’t really I don’t think it’s really It’s not an enlightened individualism Because it’s too short term it’s more Like well I am whatever I feel I am Right at this moment and to me that Smacks of well nothing more than in some Real sense like a two-year-old Immaturity and I mean that technically Because two-year-olds are very whim Oriented very very short term And and very self-centered they can’t Play with other people And so the you have the dissolution of

Identity right there’s no community no Real community Not in terms of community organization But also not in terms of real Face-to-face friendships and Interactions there’s no participation in Religious Um Enterprises there’s no real reading About political or philosophical matters There’s a decline in spirituality so There’s a real collapse of sophisticated Identity and all of this well the Sexualization of identity seems to me to Be a in some sense uh what would you say A replacement for that or reaction to That does does that does that seem on Point to you or am I missing something There well you know I I think you’re Correct in that some of those elements Of individualism are much more Short-term and not as deeply seated you Know in terms of you know religion and Meaning and you know more focus on on Some of the short term but I I think you Know lesbian and gay and bisexual Identity is is is not really an example Of that because that seems to be more Deeply seated and constant for for most People that does seem to be a much more Long-term identity so that Um I think is not as much on the part of Individualism having to do with that um The self-focus it’s more around Accepting difference and accepting

People for who they are and taking some Of the more traditional social rules and Saying you know this these don’t really Recognize people as individuals and for Who they are and that’s that might be Different it might not be in the Majority but that that’s who they are as People oh you you talked in your book um In in uh In generation me you talked about the Self-esteem movement and self-esteem has Always been a particular bug bearer of Mine I would say especially since I Discovered that psychometrically it was Basically composed of low neuroticism With a bit of extroversion thrown in and So self-esteem is a proxy for Neuroticism in many many ways and isn’t Obvious to me at all that you treat Neuroticism by treating people to be More self-centered You know one of the things I used to do With my clients who were socially Anxious say when they’d go into a social Situation they’d start obsessing about How they were appearing to other people They’d fall into that trap and then They’d stop making eye contact and then They would get awkward and then they Would engage in non-sequiturs and the Whole conversation would grind to a halt And I asked them instead to concentrate As hard as they could on putting the Other person at ease

And that gave them something to think About other than themselves and so the Self-esteem movement was predicated on The idea that people higher neuroticism Had low self-esteem which I don’t think Was true at all and that the right Remediation for that was to treat Everyone as if they were uniquely so it Was like narcissism was the antidote to Neuroticism and that’s right it’s so Appalling it doesn’t work no yeah no no In fact it makes it much worse and so Exactly yeah okay okay okay so well I’m I I’m relieved to hear that your Sentiments are in keeping with that Formulation I mean I’ve been trying to Base it on the relevant data trying to Figure that out chapter 10 independent Politics So what about well you said that the Igen people they’re not watching the News the news is dead right I mean Legacy Media news is dead I don’t think Anybody watches it I think all people Have the TV on and that’s where the Ratings come from so that’s just gone That centralizing ability that the Nightly News had to broadcast a similar Message in some sense to everyone in Bolster identity that’s disappeared too Everybody’s in their own news I wouldn’t Say bubble exactly but it’s fragmented So much that there’s no Unity of Apprehension what’s happening on the

Political front with the IGN types yeah So there’s a couple of things going on So one is that a lot more young people Now uh say they don’t want to belong to A political party at all that they’re Politically independent uh and that’s Been going on for a while The other big piece is just huge Political polarization you know Partially for the reasons that you Mentioned that everything is so atomized That you can get your news from a Particular Source Um and perhaps because of the caustic Nature of a lot of online interaction It becomes contentious very very quickly So we have a political atmosphere Um that’s just very very aggressive and Very very polarized and I mean it’s Gotten to the point here in the U.S Where people don’t even agree on their Own facts That people that the two parties have Different sets of facts Um and young people reflect that larger Cultural change uh I think they may want To change it but they also Um show more who say they’re very Liberal or very conservative or uh very Much on the left or very much on the Right and fewer in the middle yeah well That that atomization of political Identity it’s another uh interesting Twist on the notion of individualism

Because you might say that not abiding Not joining a political party not Joining a political group not joining a Religion not cementing a local social Network let’s say frees you up because You’re not constrained by the necessity Of abiding by the principles of those Groups but the problem with that is is That the more and this is something that People don’t really understand well About choice is There’s not a lot of difference between Excess choice and anxiety They’re very much the same thing right If you have too many Pathways open in Front of you and I can’t help but think That this is contributing to the Epidemic of depression and anxiety I Mean if you have a three-year-old who Wants to dress himself and you open up a Closet full of clothes he’s he or she is Just generally stumped into immobility If you lay out three outfits on the bed And say pick one then they’re perfectly Happy because they’ve had the right About constrained choice and we’ve been Teaching young people that all all Social norms are nothing but constraints On this individualistic freedom and that Completely underplays the role that Identity plays in encapsulating anxiety Now I was talking to Carl friston the Other day the neuroscientist and he’s Convinced as are many people that our

Conceptions are entropy management uh uh Techniques in in some real sense so you Know once you define yourself for Example within the confines of a given Identity Now you’re playing a bounded game that Might open up an interesting amount of Options but not so much that you drown And to lose all those intermediary Social structures except maybe the bond You have with your parents that that Strikes me as a well as a mental health Catastrophe so we should conclude this Maybe by talking about your last chapter Um What’s to be done Yeah well you know I think we absolutely Have to get a better handle on Technology particularly social media we Need more regulation we need more Balance Um technology is not all bad by any Means I mean it’s amazing how many Things that we can do Um with what we have but it has to be a Tool we use not a tool that uses us and The latter is exactly where we are that It’s amazing how many people talk about Social media using the language of Addiction And it is very clear Um what impact these technologies have Had on young people in particular Um and they’re in the Mental Health

Crisis that we’re confronting so we Really have to get a handle on this and One thing that I am encouraged by is how Many young people are recognizing this And taking those steps themselves Um a college student named Emma Lemke Who founded a movement called log off And she says it was from her having such A incredibly terrible experience with Instagram when she was a high school Student and so she’s encouraging other Young people to cut back if not Eliminate their social media use and Experience the rest of life and leave a Lot of that toxicity behind and I’m Encouraged to see more of that and more Bipartisan support for regulating social Media and so maybe we’ll get there well And so what do you have for suggestions That are practical on the regular Nation Front we talked a little bit about well Clamping down on the online trolls and The anonymous accounts I mean that just Seems to me to be a no-brainer at least They could be put in their own category Right you’re either a real person or You’re a fictional Anonymous or a bot in Which case you know you’re consigned to Perdition people can read your comments If they want but But concretely what do you first of all What do you think the social media Platforms could do and should do and and Even if they did it do you think that

The social media landscape will just Transform itself so rapidly that it’ll Elude any sort of Regulation because I Mean a lot of these social media Platforms are only a couple of years old They spring into being they’re massively Powerful I don’t imagine they have a Tremendous amount of longevity and so We’re playing regulatory catch up all The time yeah absolutely well you know I Think a lot of it starts with age Verification if we can verify people’s Age we would cut down on a lot of the Sexual predation we would get rid of Children 12 and under being on the Platforms Um the platforms could have Um more regulation and uh be safer for Say 13 to 17 year olds in terms of you Know hiding the likes and comments on Other people’s posts If Facebook actually tried that at one Point they called it project Daisy and They decided not to implement it because It cut down on Revenue even though they Showed it it cut down on social Comparison particularly for teens so There’s there’s a really there’s a long List of lot of of regulations that could Be put in place that you know would have Only a small impact on the social media Companies that that decrease in Revenue With project Daisy was one percent Oh well it’s good of them not to have

Implemented it then because you know one Percent is pretty catastrophic So there’s so many things that they Could do to keep kids and teens safer uh But it it depends on not on I think not Being anonymous not being able to open Multiple accounts and verifying age Right right and who do you know that’s Where apart from you who do you know That’s working on such ideas I know that Jonathan height has made many Suggestions on the on the internet Pathology front it doesn’t appear to me That the big social media companies are Really paying attention to the Psychological research in any real sense I mean maybe that’s unfair but I don’t Think so the comment sections could have Been cleaned up Long Ago by anybody with Any sense as far as I can tell I think They know I think they know it they know They know the research it’s just they Have their own reasons for not acting on It some of which are Financial right Right and so who else apart from you and Jonathan height are worth talking to About the internet predicament that Young people have found themselves in There’s a lot of great research on this Topic Um there’s a Australian researchers done A lot of stuff on Instagram and Body Image um I I may get her her first name Ryan Marika Tigerman

Um she’s done a lot of great stuff on That uh Brian primac who’s uh an MD by Training and works in public health has Done a lot of great stuff too on um Looking at social media use and how it Relates to depression and loneliness and He’s looked at young adults in Particular well maybe I can get in Contact with you to to get some of these Names because I’d like to put together a Little group of people who are Concentrating on social media regulation And maybe introduce them to the Political types that I have access to Because it’s a pressing issue and it’s Not being dealt with well and it’s Driving polarization in a terrible way And uh so all right well we should wrap Up this part of our conversation we Spoke today almost primarily about your New book igen an analysis of the first Generation the behavior of the first Generation who’s been who’ve been Exposed I would say over the entire Course of their life to these radically New technologies that we so thoughtfully Refer to as phones When they’re much more God only knows What they are but they’re certainly not Phones and I appreciate you very much Sharing your Insight with us today and I’d like to thank everybody who’s Watching and listening on YouTube and to Remind you that I do an extra half an

Hour with my guests on The Daily wire Plus platform where I walk through their Lives in a more biographical sense Trying to assess well the ups and downs Of their career but also to try to focus In on what’s made them particularly Let’s say successful and impactful and And uh what prices they paid for that What benefits have accrued so for those Of you who are interested head over to The Daily wire plus platform and you can Hear Dr twingy for another half an hour Talking with me Hello everyone I would encourage you to Continue listening to my conversation With my guest on dailywireplus.com

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