Infamous: When Comedy Exists Outside of Agenda | Andrew Schulz | #304

Dr. Peterson’s extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+:

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Andrew Schulz discuss the formation of the comedic premise, the necessity and power of play, how self esteem and the internet have helped fuel our modern world and fragmented woke-ness, and why Schulz decided to release his hit special on his own, despite mainstream interest.

Andrew Schulz is an American stand up comic, podcast host, actor, and producer. Schulz began his standup journey in college at the University of California, where he also earned a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology. From there he both hosted and appeared on numerous MTV shows such as Guy Code and The Hook Up. In 2015 Schulz starred in the IFC series Benders, and appeared as a recurring character in Amazon’s Sneaky Pete up until 2017. That same year, he released his first comedy special, 4:1:1, on Youtube. He followed this up in 2018 with the special 5:1:1 which went on to top the charts on Amazon, iTunes, Apple Music, Google Play, and Billboard. He has released multiple comedy EP’s, as well as produced and hosted multiple podcasts, such as The Brilliant Idiots which he co-hosts with Charlamagne tha God, and Flagrant 2 which he shares with fellow comics Akaash Singh, Mark Gagnon, and the video editor known as AlexxMedia. Most recently in 2022, Schulz published yet another free-on-Youtube comedy special, Infamous, which he infamously chose not to release on major streaming platforms, despite express interest.


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— Chapters —

(0:00) Coming Up
(0:51) Intro
(4:00) Saying “no” to the biggest streaming platforms
(8:00) Fragmented woke-ness
(11:20) Crenshaw, Kanye, the reactionary right
(15:00) Andy Ngo, Antifa
(17:55) Acting for the right reasons versus self preservation
(21:49) The jokes they wanted to cut
(24:30) The truth in comedy
(27:45) Extreme notoriety accompanies success
(30:58) Why Jordan Peterson has leaned conservative
(33:15) Self esteem, breaking out, and creativity
(39:40) Education, the internet, and echo chambers
(43:55) Resentment, discourse, the Daily Wire
(47:19) Schulz on Jordan
(50:55) Finding community online versus in person
(55:10) Hard arguments and the creation of a comedic premise
(1:00:45) Curse words are an insight into culture
(1:02:22) Frustration over censorship, the choice to go it alone
(1:08:14) The power of story, the lens through which we see the world
(1:13:31) Why rules are enacted through story
(1:15:10) Why Hollywood films are more and more disjointed
(1:21:32) Making fun, the power of play
(1:25:41) Playing with death, catharsis by fire
(1:29:19) The collected poetry of Donald Trump
(1:30:42) Scaling your dragons, when tyrants rule
(1:33:49) To gaze upon what terrifies us
(1:41:26) The spirit of play, hard topics, Judaism
(1:45:50) Kanye, genius, and the hierarchy of cool


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I have this theory that like I think Stories I think we have a biological reaction to Stories in the same way that we have to Music There’s a reason why the Bible didn’t Just say just do these things there’s a Reason why they put them in story right Because it’s far more impactful to to Listen to this story and I wonder if Like through osmosis the behavior in the Stories kind of get locked into our Long-term memory where if you just tell Someone a rule it’s short term and it Might be fleeting well the the thing About having the rule embodied in the Story is you see how it’s acted out That’s much more convincing to watch how Something’s acted out partly because Then you also know how to act it out Right if it’s just a rule you have to Translate the rule into action but if It’s a story then the actions are laid Out for you [Music] Thank you Hello to everyone who’s watching and Listening on YouTube and on the podcast Platforms I’m speaking today with Comedian Andrew Schultz who’s also an Actor producer and podcaster One of the biggest and most influential Names in comedy today the business savvy Schultz has been credited with helping

To spur democratization in comedy he has Proven that Comics looking to retain Ownership of their material by Self-releasing on platforms like YouTube Can achieve equal or greater success Both financially and in terms of the Building of an audience in comparison to Those who strike deals with streamers or Networks Schultz recently sold more than 150 000 tickets as part of his 10-month Sold out Infamous tour which he capped Off by selling out the 6 000 seat Radio City Music Hall in New York twice He premiered his subsequent special Infamous exclusively via the live Streaming social media platform moment House in July before releasing it for Free on YouTube where you can watch it As I did this morning while Schultz has Self-released multiple specials Including his first titled four four one In 2017. he’s also managed to find Success Through more conventional Channels having created written Performed an executive produced The Four-part Comedy Special Schultz Saves America for Netflix in 2020 The next project he’s involved in as an Actor is Kenya barris’s remake of the Classic Streetball comedy White Men Can’t Jump for 20th century Studios Which has him sharing the screen with Laura Harrier He will also appear in Netflix romantic

Comedy you people Top Line by Eddie Murphy that must be a thrill for him Jonah Hill and Julia Louis Dreyfus which Barris will direct from his and Hill’s Script Schultz will then rejoin Barris For MGM Sports comedy underdogs Alongside Snoop Dogg so there’ll be a Lot of marijuana involved in that past Credits on the TV side include HBO’s Crashing Prime videos Sneaky Pete and Ifc’s benders Schultz’s podcast flagrant is listened To by 2 million devout fans weekly he Also co-hosts brilliant idiots with Charlemagne the God Looking forward to talking to Andrew I’m Ready I’m ready let’s do it man all Right so my mom discovered you this week So she’s an absolutely huge fan and uh She says hello and she would be furious If I didn’t say hello for her what’s Your mom’s name Cameron Sandra Cameron Schultz aha well say hello to her for me And I’m really impressed that it only Took her a week to become a huge fan That’s yeah it’s always good to know That someone’s mom likes me Yeah Yeah so so tell me hey tell me about Your your YouTube special and and how That came about you you decided not to Stream it you put it on YouTube instead So yeah I want to know the whole story How’d that come about

Okay so short short version of the story Is I was uh I was originally gonna do it With a streamer right and then they they Were unhappy with some jokes I think the Climate changed a little bit and they Were quite concerned how the jokes could Reflect on the brand which is Reasonable I think that like a private Corporation has the right to make those Decisions for themselves and then uh you Know see how things go for them after That now sometimes those decisions could Be the wrong ones you know you could Maybe become too woke in your content And then end up losing money but Uh [Applause] To woke how could that possibly be too Woke for comedy I can’t even imagine That’s a thing no but okay side note I Mean I want to get back to the special But there is something interesting that I’ve learned from like being in in Hollywood a little bit more now is that Like I used to have the perception you Know I think we all create these Perceptions where it’s like there’s this Like group of organized individuals that Are like coming together and making Decisions on like what is palatable and What isn’t palatable and then inserting Those into culture in their like Different fields like Hollywood one of Them okay all the movies this year are

Going to be about uh non-binary or Whatever it is And after being in it a little bit more I think that it’s way less organized and More about self-preservation So it’s like how do I not lose my job Big government continues to spend Borrowed money inflation continues to Swell dragging down our economy and the Stock market has entered bear territory So what’s your plan are your assets Diversified I’m Phillip Patrick precious Metal specialist for the Birch gold Group for nearly 20 years we’ve helped Americans diversify into gold and we can Help you too did you know you can own Physical gold and silver in a tax Sheltered account we can help you Transfer an IRA or 401K tied to stocks Into an IRA in Gold if you’re skeptical About the trajectory of the economy in The US dollar then text Jordan to 989898 Birch gold group will send you a free Info kit on securing your savings with Gold with thousands of satisfied Customers five star reviews and an A Plus rating with the Better Business Bureau we take Precious Metals seriously Text Jordan to 989898 for your free info Kit Well I worked with middle managers for a Long time when I was selling Uh Personnel evaluation technology to Corporations and I did that for about 10

Years rather unsuccessfully when we Found one company that used them Extensively but I learned very rapidly There that the fundamental motivation of Virtually every middle manager in a Corporation is how could I not quit Blamed if something goes wrong yes That’s it man there’s no there’s no Ambition there’s no desire to grow the Company there’s nothing but I don’t want To stick out if there’s a mistake I Don’t want it to be on me I hope I don’t Get blamed for anything I’m not going to Do anything dangerous ever and yes yeah Yeah yeah and the idea that people are Organized enough to have a conspiracy is That that’s just so rarely the case But I was part of that belief a little Bit because you see it it looks so Obvious you’re like why is every single Movie the same every single TV show the Same are they having the same values but Then after like I had a moment on a show A while ago where a guy got fired a White older man got fired because he Read the n-word like he read the script And it had the n-word in it and like the Whole cast was kind of like the people I Spoke to on the cast even the black People in the cast were like yeah I Don’t I don’t think it’s that offensive But the companies involved were thinking What the middleman was thinking what you Just said which was okay I don’t want to

Be responsible for this how do we uh how Do I get this blame off of me okay maybe If we just remove this person it’ll be a Sign that we are we care about the People that are here we don’t want them To be offended Etc now I don’t think I Don’t know I don’t believe that the guy Did it out of malice and the black People I spoke to on the cast were like Yeah I don’t think he was being Malicious at all Um but it was one of those things where Everybody was fighting for The the ability to continue working and They didn’t want to take that Responsibility and because of that they Made a very woke decision yeah so now it May you know what I’m saying it made me Look at the industry a little Differently like everybody it’s like Maybe the more desired the job is the More willing the middle managers will be To to to be extremely liberal in their Values so they don’t lose that Opportunity I don’t think that exists on A construction site because the guy’s There like look I can get a job doing Drywall somewhere else so I’m gonna say Whatever the [ __ ] jokes I want to say on This construction site So I think too though there’s there’s a Complicating Factor there which is it’s Something like this so You know each of us carries a

Representation of systems of ideas in Our in our imagination in our mind And those ideas are active within us That’s one way of thinking about it and Nobody is a 100 percent repository of All woke ideas yeah but so there’s Fragments of the woke net of ideas in Any given individual but if you get 20 People who have fragments of those ideas In their head all together in a room Then you have the whole goddamn woke Catastrophe operating right and then It’ll look like a conspiracy and then You can take 20 different people each of Whom have fragments of the woke nonsense In their head and put them in a Different room they’ll come up with the Same decisions there are webs of ideas That and in some sense each of us acts As a neuron in a in a in a neural web When we’re together in a group and so Then things look conspiratorial but it’s A consequence of the working out of the Internal logic of systems of ideas and So yeah and then it might be that each Individual actor is fundamentally only Concerned with not being held Accountable for ever making any kind of Mistake which is a hell of a way to live Your life certainly no way to live your Life if you’re a comedian or a man for That matter Maybe not even a woman you know not even Yeah yeah

It was just it was an interesting thing For me to see how it kind of manifested And I think that there is like an Opposite version of that because now I’ve seen like the The conservative woke Pop-up have you been are you familiar With this or what are you referring to I don’t even know if I called the Conservative it’s a really interesting Thing it’s I would almost call it like The Counter Culture Brigade which is Like people who I think have been I Think they were called conspiracy Theorists and now they’re kind of like Searching for a home I think a lot of The the support for Kanye even right now Is he’s just tapping into very Niche Beliefs and a bunch of them at the same Time that people have no representation For and now he’s the most famous person Tapping into those those groups right so He’s like Jordan uh he’s like um George Floyd really died of Fentanyl and now All the people that are anti-black Matter black lives matter they just [ __ ] hate the idea that there’s Anything else that killed him but his Own choice to do Fentanyl are like okay Kanye’s got it and He also did a thing I saw you know the Jews around the banks the Jews run all These things so he’s tapped into all These Niche groups and now he’s become

Like their representative but what I’ve Noticed about these groups is that like They’re so scorned by maybe being lied To by the mainstream Media or whatever It is that their personality or identity Has almost become the rejection thereof Yeah well that’s that’s always a threat That exists on the conservative side you Know the the left Wingers always accused The conservatives of being reactionary And they’re reactionary because they Keep saying things like you guys on the Left you’re going too far you’ve got to Slow down you’ve got to stop doing this You’re going too far and that is Reactionary in some sense because They’re always reacting to the excesses Of the left the the conservative types Tend not to want to change things and You know that can be their downfall too Because sometimes things have to change Although intelligent conservatives sure Know that but um It’s hard for the conservatives to come Up with a vision and to unite themselves Because well first of all they tend to Stand for tradition it’s not that easy To articulate traditional norms and Second they do get reactionary and you Know that can turn into kind of a Demented populism too because the Reactionary conservatives can go out and Find the disaffected people on the right And there’s plenty of them now and then

Capitalize on their resentment I mean Trump was pretty good at that in many Ways Um yeah and continues to be so you know Um yeah and and that’s I haven’t been Targeted particularly by the right Although I have to some degree years ago You know and yeah when when I first rose To whatever degree of notoriety I have Now A lot of the disaffected types on the Right we’re also hoping that I’d be Their guy and same thing happened to Dan Crenshaw the congressman because he kind Of looks he’s got that evil right-wing Super villain appearance if if you you Know in some sense and they were kind of Hoping he’d be their man and he wasn’t And he actually gets targeted more by The by the conspiratorial right than he Gets harassed by the left which is quite The accomplishment on crenshaw’s part While today’s cups of coffee often come With hints of soy and social justice our New coffee sponsor delivers an entirely Different experience it’s bold strong Delicious and overall as good as the Causes it supports I’m speaking of Course about Black Rifle coffee many of You know about Black Rifle already it’s A veteran founded and operated Coffee Company who have made it their mission To hire 10 000 veterans and they’re well On their way by purchasing for Black

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About like gun rights or something like That he was their Champion as long as he Said everything that they agree with and The second he diverted from their Beliefs he no longer was useful and this Should happen this happened to me I Didn’t even know that this like cluster Of people existed in this like organized Way but like I did a rant where I went After Kanye and I thought it was kind of A pretty easy thing to do here’s a Billionaire that said some awful things I’m going to roast them with jokes this Is what I do I think we can make fun of Billionaires I think they’re okay to Make fun of and there was this like Onslaught of comments about people Saying you got it wrong you know it’s Fentanyl it killed Jordan Floyd you got It wrong the Jews do run the banks they Do these things and I’m like who what What is this group of people and why are They so organized and hateful why is Kanye their new guy and I started dming Some people that were like trashing me And I was just explain like what you’re Upset about to me I don’t understand Like we’re just making fun of like a Really rich guy that said some awful Things and The reaction that every single one of Them said was so funny they’re like look Kanye is an idiot but he’s right about These things and they’re basically

Saying anybody who agrees with me and is Famous I’m gonna ride for as long as They agree with me and the second they Divert the problem with social media is That you have to hear from people like That you know let me tell you a story I Was talking to uh Andy no the journalist Who covers antifa Yeah and uh I had been talking to some Prominent Democrats about antifa and They said it doesn’t exist And I said well what do you mean it Doesn’t exist it Promoted riots in multiple American Cities there’s people in Black masks and Uniforms that call themselves antifa How do you mean it doesn’t exist say Well there’s hardly any of them they’re Not really organized they’re not an Official group Um and they’re a tiny tiny they’re such A tiny minority that they’re negligible And uh I didn’t really appear to me that They were negligible but these were Respectable people and they weren’t Stupid and I thought okay they probably Have a reason for thinking this so I Asked Andy no about this because he Knows more about antifa than anyone else In the world and I said how many antifa Sales do you think there are cells so to Speak in the United States and he Thought well maybe 40 and I said well How many full-time equivalent employees

Do each of these cells have so to speak Right how many people in each City are Devoting them their lives to being Antifa whatever that means and he Figured 20. and so that’s 800. out of 300 million it’s one in four hundred Thousand And so like that’s none right in a city The size of Halifax City many Americans probably don’t know About but it’s a city of about 400 000 In Canada you’d have one person and like In some ways that’s zero people right It’s just no one right but the problem Is is that a very tiny number of people Can cause a tremendous amount of Problems a tremendous amount of trouble And maybe enough trouble to bring down a Whole civilization maybe it only takes One in a hundred thousand to do that Especially if they’re organized and now With social media well they’re always Organized because no matter how peculiar You are you can find another 100 dimwits Exactly like you on the net and then you Start to think that well you’ve got Something there and you know in some Ways that’s a plus because disaffected People can find a community but man it Depends on who the disaffected people Are and exactly what the community is up To Yes so and then you know you’re in a Situation where you’re putting out

Content to hundreds of thousands or Millions of people and You you also you get feedback but it’s Demented and strange feedback because It’s not representative of the normal Population it’s yeah it might be that Subset of people who had a really bad Day for reasons you don’t even Understand and that are deciding to take It out on you behind a mask of anonymity There’s something very pathological About the democratization of public Discourse on social media it’s really Warped and demented Now my my question to you is why do you Think that those Democrat leaders didn’t Acknowledge that this was a problem do You think they truly didn’t think it was A problem based on the data or do you Think that they were also acting in Terms of self-preservation well I think For Chan and an inspiratorial Truly real But that’s self-preservation yeah I know Criticize the opposition it’s not those Votes it’s also justification for their Own beliefs Of course of course but like I I Actually admire what Crenshaw did is he Knew by taking that stand that he was Going to reject some of his base I Admire that that’s a ballsy Brave move Stand up for something you believe in Despite pissing off people who may

Follow you and support you He’s not acting in terms of Self-preservation he’s doing what he Genuinely thinks the right thing to do Is now in politics this is middle Management right you have to support Your constituents if you want to stay in Office if you truly care about holding On to power if you truly care about Making change you’re going to piss off Your constituents by rejecting antifa Because the opposition is gonna or your Your maybe Democratic opposition is Going to position you as someone who is Not empathetic to the liberal plate yeah Well you know the the easy way out of This as far as I can tell well easy the Only real way out of this conundrum is Just to say what you think like you Don’t have to say everything you think All the time but you have to you have to Decide at some point whether you’re Going to Pander to the short-term Demands of your hypothetical Constituents or whether you’re just Going to say what you believe to be true And the thing is is that I watch Politicians and this is this is a Particular terrible thing that’s Happening in the political Arena right Now is they use opinion polls to sample The consequences of their actions but Most of that’s just rubbish and the Reason I’m saying that there’s technical

Reasons for that is that if you want to Find out what people think Say even one person it’s extremely Difficult because first of all people Don’t know exactly what they think and They can’t articulate it that well and It’s a mystery even to them and so you Have to spend a lot of time listening to Find out what anybody thinks about Anything especially if you’re not just Going to go for their immediate cliches And then if you’re going to sample a Whole population and try to get their Opinion about some political issue then You have to formulate the questions with Unbelievable care it really takes To find out what people think about any Given complex issue would probably take A team of reasonable researchers two or Three months to formulate the questions Accurately enough to get a reasonable Response and yet opinion pollsters claim That they can just tell you what people Think by coming up with some questions And so then the politicians Judge the results of their actions by The opinion polls which don’t really Represent people’s views at all and then We’re led by this idiot whim of the mob And you know the real the real leaders Go out and listen to people Right and and then aggregate their Concerns and and then act on principle And that’s essentially what Crenshaw did

Was and to tell the truth is to act on Principle and and I think with regard to The medium to long term rather than the Short-term immediate you know popularity Payoff which is a bad way to it’s a very Bad way to conduct your Affairs I don’t Think it’s a good long-term strategy And imagine if you were a comedian and You’re you’re your rule was I’ll never Make a joke that offends anyone Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I’d be I’d be a very different comedian I’ll tell you that yeah I think pretty Much every joke in your last special Would have been cut Yeah yeah yeah so back to that you said The streaming service that you were Working with wanted to yeah they wanted To edit your show and how in the hell Did they decide what was the hierarchy Of offense because I I watched your Special this morning and I thought every Goddamn thing you said was offensive so How do they decide what to cut what to Keep That’s a great question you know I’m Sure that they have their everybody has Their like list list of what is right And wrong and I think that list is so Malleable and I think that’s for me That’s the most fun part of stand-up is I like finding the divisive topic and Then seeing if there’s like one kernel That we can all agree on and sometimes

That thing that we all agree on is the Opposite of what everybody would like to Present themselves as So like Like I’m trying to think of even I know I had a bit about abortion in in the Special but I’m even thinking about like Abortion right now which is a very Divisive topic right I don’t know how You feel about it but I’ve been like Really thinking I’m like what is like The the truth on how people feel about Abortion and I think I’ve gotten to it Which is Uh okay Everybody has a number of abortions Where if you go past that it’s too many So it’s not really Even if you’re liberal it’s not really Your body your choice it’s like your Body your choice up to like three And then all of a sudden people are like What’s what’s going on over here you Know nine nine is a softball team like That’s that’s a lot right like that Usually people even the most liberal Person will be like all right we’ll Teach her how to put on a condom or Something like what the [ __ ] is going on Over here and then the most conservative Person their number is one They’re like one is too many but we all Agree that there’s a spectrum Of when it’s too much and I think like

For me that’s where a joke begins right I go okay there’s I can there’s a whole Group of people in like this liberal San Francisco audience where I may perform At or a super liberal New York audience What if I can get every person out even The women that are super pro-choice to Be like yeah nine is a lot I you know Nine I think it might be the Government’s choice at nine You know like how can I get you to see The other side without being a Politician about it going this is how You must live your life how can I do it We all laugh you know I think it was Like Oscar Wilde is like uh said like uh If you want to tell uh some of the truth Make them laugh uh if not they’ll kill You and I don’t think all comedy has to Be truthful and all that kind of I think Comedy speaks to feeling it doesn’t Speak to what is right or wrong it Speaks to genuinely how you feel and um It does tend to speak to truth in some Real sense because yeah when you laugh When an audience laughs they laugh Spontaneously right But the laughter is truthful because it Taps into a feeling but just because you Feel a thing doesn’t mean that that is Right or wrong and I think that’s where A lot of times comedians get in trouble When they start going I’m speaking truth To power I’m telling you what’s right or

Wrong and it’s like buddy don’t put the Cape on yeah just if you tell people You’re just out here telling jokes You’re just having fun now you’re not Going to be positioned with the Responsibility to tell the truth every Time I want to tell [ __ ] up jokes I Want to say messed up things in order For me to do that and have the freedom To create in that space I can’t be Superman You know I mean I can’t say that I’m the Arbiter of truth I’m going to get it Right every single time what I’m going To do every single time is make you Laugh I think also that that actually Um what would you say it subordinates Comedy to something lower You know when I you see this happening With entertainers very frequently Probably most often with actors is but Sometimes with musicians sometimes with Other Let’s call them entertainers it’s a bad Term creative artists is they they get Possessed of the idea at some point that What they’re doing isn’t good enough and That because it isn’t good enough they Have to do something truly good and That’s usually something in the Political Arena And what they don’t understand is that There is almost nothing in the political Arena that’s anywhere near as good as

What works in the creative Arena so You’re immediately subordinating what’s Best to what’s lowest and so when you See a Hollywood actor go on a political Rampage you think well you’re already Doing a lot of good for the world with Your creative actions and now you’re now You’re a second-rate politician even Though you were a first-rate actor or Comedian or musician and you know I’ve Gone to a lot of artistic shows in Recent years and had them polluted by Political discussion and you get pulled Into the performance and then halfway Through there’s something politically Correct often because that’s generally The case now and you think oh my God I Got suckered here you know I was coming To hear someone great do something great Now I have to listen to the same Half-wit political opinion that I could Have not paid for and listened to any Undergraduate spout it’s like well Thanks a lot for that you know you think Black lives matter well you know that Doesn’t make you special Yeah you know anyone who’s not an Outright bloody Nazi thinks that and so It’s just not it’s just not elevating And it’s it’s very sad thing to see that Um creative artists are buying the idea Part of this Rat’s Nest of ideas we were Talking about earlier that uh That politics is somehow morally

Superior political opinions are somehow Morally Superior to creative Endeavor That’s definitely the case on the comedy Front Yeah it’s I wonder if it hmm Yeah I think it’s hard I think like with Success and notoriety well it’s twofold It’s like with extreme criticism for Example you went through extreme extreme Criticism it’s hard I would imagine To stick to your guns when you know that You could easily back into the comfort Of the people supporting you right it’s The brave move is despite the criticism Continue saying and feeling uh but the Things that you feel for lack of a Better way to describe it but like to Continue being consistent on how you Feel and expressing that it’s very easy To get like this onslaught of criticism From the left and then just go all right The right likes me I’m gonna go right Wing all my opinions are conservative Etc it’s much harder to piss off the Left one day piss off the right the Other day because that’s who you are as A real person nobody is 100 in that way And feeling that thought every single Time like what I what I try to I guess Express in a lot of Comedy like I have An abortion bit in the special to this Day nobody knows which side I am on the Abortion issue right and both sides Think that joke represents them that’s

Designed on purpose to do that like if You even look at the comments both of Them are recognizing like the faults in Their side and also the support of their Side and to me it was really cool to put Out a piece like that that wasn’t going You’re an idiot for not believing Exactly what I believe especially a Divisive topic like that I just think It’s I don’t know like did you have that Moment where you were getting this Onslaught of criticism people are Calling you the next [ __ ] Nazi Diss And then you’re the The Muse for like Movie villains was there ever a moment Where you were like [ __ ] this I don’t Need to stay true to myself let me back Into the comfort of the people who love Me Post-modernism is tearing our world Apart the one thing that may be able to Unite us is a mass return to Our Judeo-christian Roots at the individual Level that means developing our prayer Life there’s a ton of literature out There on the benefits of secular New Age Mindfulness meditation but what isn’t Talked about nearly enough is the power Of a consistent prayer life that’s where Hallow comes into play hallow is the Number one Christian Prayer app in the U.S and the number one Catholic app in The world hallow features over 5 000 Prayers and meditations including daily

Prayers to help you build a habit of Prayer and gratitude Bible reflections With Jeff cavins and father Mike Schmitz To help you grow in knowledge and Understanding meditations to help you Prepare for sleep and rest each day Reflections with Bishop Barron and much More use hallow as a foundational tool To grow in gratitude and character each And every day try it free for three Months by going to Jordan That’s Jordan ground yourself In fundamental truths with hallow today Yeah while it’s hard to say you know Because a lot of that’s pretty subtle if All the attacks are almost all the Attacks are coming from one side and Almost all the support is coming from The other side it also puts you in a Position of having to wonder just Exactly who your friends are You know and one of the things I have Found is that for me for whatever reason And I don’t think that this is unique to Me it’s a lot harder for me to talk to People on the left And the reason for that and it didn’t Used to be like that not not 10 years Ago or 15 years ago Um yeah In fact if you talked to me 15 years ago I probably would have thought that I was At least moderately on the left And so but in any case I always feel

Like I have to walk on eggshells I feel Like I have to watch what I’m saying and I don’t really like talking to people Around whom I have to watch what I’m Saying I actually like dark people and I Can just say what I have to say Especially if it happens to be funny Which now and then is the case and so And then it is difficult not to identify With people who support you especially If that goes on for years And so who knows how that changes you Know I I definitely have become more Conservative in my thinking and I would Say I think there are intellectual Reasons for that primarily though you Know because one of the things I’ve Understood More deeply recently more explicitly you Know I’ve been putting this together is That The definition of Sanity that’s Generally Implicitly held among the psychological Community is probably too Individualistic And what I mean by that is that I don’t Think that sanity is something that you Have in your head it’s not part of your Psyche it’s not part of you exactly it’s More like harmonious interaction with The hierarchy of social Um of social Arrangements that you have With other people so well imagine this

For example i i a a neighbor I knew on My street said to me once you’re never Any happier than your most unhappy child Foreign Right so that’s a good one but so you Imagine well you’re a pretty sane person And you’re married and your marriage is Terrible it’s like well then you’re not That sane are you and if you have a Terrible marriage and you’re not getting Along with your kids then you’re also Not very sane and if you’re If you’re in a terrible marriage and you Don’t get along with your kids and You’re fighting with your siblings and Your parents then you’re even less sane And So imagine that sanity you’re saying if You have a relationship that’s working If you have a relationship with your Family that’s working if that family is Nested inside a community that isn’t too Fractious you know there’s something Musical about it it’s like every note Has its place and so I think yeah you See what I mean and it’s also I see yeah I see what you mean but if I can give Some pushback I would say that like the Person that has the miserable marriage And unhappy kids but is still seemingly Happy that person is insane to me the Person that has unhappy kids in an Unhappy marriage and is unhappy is sane Yes that’s exactly well that’s exactly

The point I’m making is that okay yes Because the thing is is that if you Aren’t reflecting the structure of the Social communities around you then You’re off calibration well here I was Talking to a woman named Gene twangy Yesterday and she’s a research Psychologist we were talking about Self-esteem And one of the the self-esteem movement In this school system in California was Absolutely dreadfully devastating and Appalling it basically posited that you Could teach kids how to be narcissistic To overcome their negative emotion and Neuroticism and that’s so preposterously Appalling that you couldn’t invent Something stupider so we were talking About self-esteem whatever the hell that Means because it’s a very badly defined Term but here’s one Way of determining whether you have the Appropriate amount of self-esteem you Might say well everyone should feel good About themselves it’s like well if You’re a miserable ratty lying deceptive Narcissistic prick then probably you Shouldn’t feel that good about yourself And how do you know that because you Should feel about as good about yourself As people on average do around you about You Right so you’re and we even know this Technically because you have a little

Counter so to speak yes in your psyche That ranks you in terms of your social Standing And the higher you’re ranked the less Negative emotion you feel and the more Positive emotion you feel yeah yeah and That’s because your brain is indicating To you that you’re well situated in a Social community and you’re secure with Opportunity and so your self-esteem Should that’s exactly how it works it’s A very yeah so what happens to people Who get depressed Technically depressed is that that Counter goes astray and they start Thinking less of themselves then their Situation would indicate yeah and so Then everything around them falls apart They feel that their past was a Catastrophe they feel that their present Is hopeless and that the future isn’t Going anywhere but it’s because this Really really low level counter that Utilizes serotonin has gone astray and Sometimes antidepressants can help deal With that now that’s not someone that Isn’t someone who has a terrible life That’s someone who has a good life but Something’s gone wrong with them Psychophysiologically often so the Counter is out of whack in any case you Should have about as much self-esteem as Other people are willing to Grant you And that’s kind of a conservative idea

As well in some real sense Enough self-esteem as others are willing To Grant you yeah it’s like well imagine You know it Assume that you’re an average performer You shouldn’t be running around feeling Good about yourself in excess of that Because your attitude towards yourself Should be a reflection of your actual Situation in the social environment So my pushback on that would be Um if your self-esteem is defined by how The people around you treat you how can You break out yeah when you’re in and Well especially when you’re in an Industry of of narcissists that are Really only concerned with how they’re Doing what they want like how how do you Separate yourself that that’s a great Question man and that’s that’s the That’s the trick that that well presents Itself to everyone creative But the answer maybe is And this is I don’t I don’t know if we Support this but this might be the truth There is a reason why narcissists tend To break out because their self-esteem Is not limited by the views of others That is that is true that is exactly True well in fact in that regard so you Put your finger on something that’s Cardally important because it is Generally the case that your view of Yourself should reflect the views of

Those around you but the problem with That is now and then the social Situation gets so pathological that That’s no longer reliable Now when that happens you’re really in Trouble that’s the first thing we should Point out because if Society has got so Demanded That its feedback can no longer be Trusted then everything’s that Everything’s going to hell in a hand Basket pretty quickly but that is when You get the necessity for people to call On whatever it is within them that makes Them true moral agents to let’s say say What they believe to be true with with Great caution but I would say even in Those circumstances like I’ve been Fortunate when I’ve been doing that to The degree I’ve been able to do that Because I have friends around me who are Giving me accurate feedback I would say And careful feedback despite the mob Pressure I don’t know if anybody could Really do that alone you know you know What I mean maybe you’ve got 100 and 100 I just know and I’m sure you felt this As well is it like At least when I’m running my my business And I have my my friends and the guys That I work with and build with I Personally feel most creative when I Have support right so when there is a Momentum when the ball is moving when

There’s an avalanche that’s when these Explosions of creativity happen to me in A conversation when I’m talking to Someone or other people who value what I Have to say all of a sudden I have tons To say I’m excited to share when I’m Talking to someone who thinks that I’m An idiot I’m questioning the things that I have to say so in my mind I’m trying To Foster an environment where everybody Here feels the confidence to access Their genius right now if they’re genius In one zone is a six that’s fine if Their genus another zone is a 10 that’s Fine but let me get the best version of You now that’s not saying we’re Buttering people up yeah but at the same Time we’re not treating it like I I Don’t know I think like creativity is Not a football field right where it’s Like you can only run as fast as you can Run I can yell at a player he’s still Going to run a 40 in five seconds I can Say he sucks he’s gonna run a 40 in five Seconds I can say he’s great he’s gonna Run 45 seconds but with somebody who’s Coming up with like a creative idea a Funny idea the more I build his Confidence up the more willing he is to Go into those deep weird Concepts that Might produce something incredibly Creative yeah yeah well you do a lot About by listening and attending right And yeah and yeah because because people

People will Will manifest themselves more fully in Precise proportion to the degree that They’re being attended to and listening To I was thinking too about the the Calibration issue you know one of the Values of a real education Is that you start to spread the Community that you identify with over Vast spans of time So you know in in the humanities in Particular at least in principle there Was a golden thread of conversation That’s been going on at least from the Time of Socrates between great minds Moving forward that have been Adjudicated as great by the consensus of The entire educated Community let’s say And now that’s all of course parody does As uh patriarchal oppression but we’ll Leave that aside for the moment and then Maybe when when you’re called upon to Speak carefully and truthfully despite Mob pressure and despite your Otherwise laudable willingness to Abide by the Judgment of the group The Group starts to expand across time and So the pathologies of the moment can be Ignored in favor of the What would you call it the wisdom of the Group stretching across thousands and Thousands of years and you see that’s Also in some sense a conservative idea In in the deepest sense because the idea

Would be that there is a fundamental Spiritual tradition that manifests Itself philosophically and theologically That has to be attended to despite the Vagaries of the moment and so yeah and That seems to be right you know I mean I Think what you do when if you go to University and you get a real education You find a peer group The peer group of creative and truthful Thinkers and their thought in some sense Exists outside of time right it’s Eternally valuable and it doesn’t matter What the situation is and then you can Judge your actions in the moment against Those standards Hmm Yeah but you’re still picking the people Whose standards most resemble yours well Not necessarily not if you’re really Getting educated you know because then You get exposed to a lot of people who Didn’t necessarily think the way you Thought Well this is this is why it’s so Important it’s like And this is why the internet is amazing But also dangerous it’s just like University in this way okay before the Internet there was college and that’s How I described it in high school you Talked to some people that had rough Experiences in high school especially People are younger than me and I said

Hey just wait to go to college you’re Going to be dealing with way more people And you’ll be able to be yourself Because there’s some other people that Actually feel just like you yeah right And you’re going to really like this College experience because you’re going To find a friend group that just didn’t Exist in your small 100 kid per grade uh High School right The internet is that on steroids right Now that little four-person group that Really likes gaming and wearing masks And doing all this other [ __ ] is four Million globally you get to feel part of A big group and you have all these People that like what you have to say But what I think that the internet can Often do and it’s something that like I Try my hardest to not let it do is it Dulls our sword You know what we don’t have to Communicate outside of the echo chamber Right we know if we want we can say the Things we believe to the people who also Believe them and now there’s no more Nuance one of the great things about Getting on stage and doing stand-up Comedy show when people don’t know I’m Going to be there right I’ve been very Fortunate to go and sell out from the Biggest theaters in in the country right This has been awesome but one of the Really cool things about going up to a

Show where people don’t know I’m going To be there is there people who may Disagree with me hate me not know me and Also love me all in the same room And it keeps my tongue Sharp I have to communicate to those people Ideas that they might disagree with in a Way that’s funny enough for them to Listen and then project laughter I fear And I sometimes fear that like you’ve Experienced so much [ __ ] undeserved Hate from the left That it’s positioned you as with some Resentment which is reasonable I don’t Know how you’re even still having like The common debate and discourse like if Most people in your situation they would Just say damn screw them whatever but Your information is more important to The people who don’t agree with you than The ones who already agree You know what I’m saying like yeah Explaining the value of let’s say God I’m not someone who’s raised with Religion but I believe in the power of It and so explaining the power of God to Someone who is not religious is more Important to the than to the believer Because if that person can get something From it it’s so powerful but if you’ve Only ever explained it to your Congregation you’re not going to be able To communicate it to me or another

Person or a person who is a maybe There’s even an atheist there’s no way They’re going to be able to digest it Yeah well that was that was part of the Potential danger of joining forces with The daily wire you know because they’re Obviously a conservative Enterprise and My family and I thought long and hard About that I mean first of all Um I like working with the daily wire They’ve been extremely good to work with They’ve left me alone Not only have they left me alone to do Whatever it is that I want to do they’ve Helped me do things I wanted to do that I wouldn’t have been able to do Otherwise and I also felt that it was Appropriate and wise to find some Um allies on the social media front Because well I got banned off Twitter And you know YouTube hasn’t harassed me Much although they’ve demonetized my Daughter several times for reasons that Are completely opaque and God only knows You know what might happen on the YouTube front I know they’ve demonetized You on me Park many times the North Korean dissident and that’s because the Army Park objects to North Korea you Know when you think you’d be able to get Away with that given that it’s right After all North Korea which is like the Worst dictatorship anyone’s ever managed To produce which is really saying

Something right because there’s been Some pretty bad dictatorships and so and Obviously the daily wire is a Conservative Enterprise and I was Worried that that would compromise my Ability to communicate with the very People that you were just discussing Especially about the things that I want To talk about but Um You know also I would say I don’t exactly know what to make of This you also find your friends where They’re willing to have you You know and I get pilloried quite often For not talking to enough people on the Left and a huge part of the reason for That is that most of the time they won’t Talk to me I I spent years trying to Find Democrats who would speak to me you Know actual politicians who would speak To me on my YouTube channel and although I have a couple identified now and Potentially lined up for years the Answer to that request was there’s no Way we’re going on your Channel And so you know how the hell can you Talk to people if they just say no why Should they why should they go on their Channel you’re going to lobotomize them Like I don’t think the answer is Speaking to politicians like I remember I remember First engaging like with your content

And what I think is so powerful about You Is that you’re such a thoughtful thinker That you can really almost have I don’t Want to use the word weaponized but like You can weaponize Arguments for the Average person that has feelings they Can’t articulate and I think what’s What’s so powerful about that is that You’re giving a voice to someone that Doesn’t feel confident enough to express Themselves right and it’s a really but What’s really great about it is that It’s articulated in a way in which the Other side understands and accepts and I Think it’s one of the reasons I was Probably drawn to you is because I like Doing this with comedy regardless of Which side I’m fighting for I would Never take a political side because That’s that’s my ability to dance yeah I Can’t dance once I say I’m on one I Don’t want you to know where the joke is Going but what I loved is you you Deliver this information and it was so Hard to refute it and I don’t care Whether you’re on the daily wire or Whether you’re on CNN Plus or whatever That [ __ ] is doesn’t matter to me Because as long as your thoughts stay True to you then that will be Communicated maybe less people on the Left will digest them because you’re on The daily wire and that’s their [ __ ]

Bias which is stupid but I do want your Ideas to get to them and I want them to Get to them in a way where it’s it’s not Coming with resentment because nobody Listens once they’re told they’re an Idiot first you know what I mean like if You’re gonna listen you an idiot here’s Why you’re a [ __ ] idiot I already Shut down You know what I’m saying like because You said you want to fight me you didn’t You want to teach me something and I Wonder if when you were teaching in the University level you were almost you Were almost it was like the comedy club With the strangers you don’t know who These kids are where they’re from well It was awesome it was never political You know I mean none of the things I did At the University Until I objected to some Canadian Legislation wherever political yeah and Um I I didn’t really expect politics Ruins everything I wish we could just Talk about it culturally like I don’t Know politics creates this divide and There are these people that it’s just Like we were talking about before They’re just trying to preserve Themselves they just want to keep their Job they want to win their next Re-election and they’re using you in Some gotcha strategy and I hated seeing It happen but there’s certain Realms

That once you enter you deal with the Onslaught there’s like institutions like You with banking you banking people are Going to take you out you politics People are going to take you out and There’s probably like another one as Well and but for me it’s like what are These cultural conversations like it’s Important the messaging that you get Across and I know it and you do Something and I’m not trying to Compliment myself here I’m just Complimenting you but like for me when You express a a Viewpoint or a feeling And my 75 year old mother likes it and a 19 year year old kid likes it you’re Speaking to Core Primal human instinct Okay that is what jokes do if I see yeah When I see generations of people at one Of my shows when I see a father and his Son both laughing together like one I Get emotional almost because I’m like oh I love those moments with my Dad yeah But two I’m like I’m hitting [ __ ] Core I’m hitting who you are I’m not Tapping into this like Community you’re Supposed to be a part of I’m tapping Into something Primal yeah well so you Know you talked about people’s ability To find community on online and and the Analogy between that and the colleges I Think the difference is is that when you Go to college and you find people who

Have your intellectual and creative Interests let’s say you also do that Under the tutelage of older people so There’s an apprenticeship element and You do it while you’re being introduced To the great thinkers of the past and so There’s a again that’s a conservative Idea in some sense it’s like you get This new freedom and you get to you get To expose yourself so to speak to new People and but you do that within the Confines of an intellectual tradition And so that stops IT from going Seriously sideways let’s say into the Realm of ideology or propaganda or Conspiratorial thinking which are yeah Which are pathologies that you might Associate with that emergent group Identity and a lot of that’s lacking Online obviously obviously yeah I hate How I’ll be honest like I hate how the Right has been bastardized I hate how The left has been turned into like a Bunch of like [ __ ] little [ __ ] like I Think that there’s these extreme Versions right like the extreme right is Not like a Romney conservative you know What I mean like the extreme left is not Like uh I mean Clinton is you know Embroiled in controversy obviously but Like when my parents were growing up and They were like Clinton Democrats you Know or even Obama if you want to say it Like these things are so close yet the

Parties are are defined by their Extremes it’s almost like soccer clubs You know when you look at like these Soccer teams they’re like defined by Their Hooligans a lot of times it’s like The hooligans are five not even five Percent of the people even go to the Games right so what I would love is the Discourse to come back here yeah well And part of that part of that I really Think I was talking again to this Gene Twangy the other day about what’s Happening online to facilitate that and This tiny percentage of of of Bad actors Goes without punishment online And that’s a huge problem you know if You’re a real trouble making prick in Person someone’s going to give you a SWAT And that’s going to keep you down you Know and sometimes that doesn’t happen Appropriately and sometimes it does but Generally speaking people watch their Tongues pretty carefully when they’re Talking face to face with actual others And the narcissists and the Machiavellians and the Psychopaths Keep themselves pretty well in check Because of that pressure but online none Of those Sanctions exist plus the social media Companies capitalize on the agitation They produce and they literally Capitalize on it because their

Algorithms Drive people’s attention Towards the polarizing influences and so Yeah we’re in a situation now where that Three percent because it’s probably no More than that Holds disproportionate influence over Over political discourse online and I Have the suspicion that that’s tearing Us that’s really tearing us apart Because it’s yeah it’s obliviating the Middle right the reasonable middle yeah It’s also the case I think that the People in the reasonable middle Because they’re reasonable and because They’re just going about their lives Aren’t that good at articulating the Values of the middle right yes because Yeah I always think about this in Relationship to marriage it’s like you Know some radical can come up to you and Poke you and say justify marriage and The typical person is just going to be Set back on their heels it’s like well I Don’t know how to do that we agreed 50 000 years ago that marriage was a good Thing I can’t come up with a Philosophical justification for it why Do you love your children Yeah well I don’t know I just Yeah well it’s it’s the the you know the The the the ideas that bind us that are Deep They don’t they’re not generally they’re Not generally articulated

And so when they’re challenged those who Hold them have no idea what to say and Like here’s another here’s another Example I like to use this on people who Are radically left it’s like why is Slavery wrong How do you think well God it’s obvious That slavery is wrong slavery’s just Wrong it’s like okay fair enough why Yeah Well as far as I can tell it has to do Something it has to do with the Fundamental sanctity of the individual It’s basically a religious claim Yeah you’re removing their freedom yeah And their freedom is their freedom is an Appropriate part of them because they’re A part of Divine Providence it’s Something like that that’s the axiomatic Claim well if you dispense with the Entire religious underlay which is Really what you do if you’re if you’re On the radical left it’s like well then Why not why not just use power if I can Make you do what I want you to do Why the hell no let’s do it This is how jokes works like yeah but Why is it wrong because this is how Jokes work isn’t this beautiful it’s Like you find a way to get a person who Is an atheist doesn’t believe in Religion thinks religion is the worst Thing in the world to agree that Religion has immense value by getting

Them by getting them to agree that a Thing they hate slavery is wrong and Then you attach why slavery is wrong to The thing that they also think is wrong And now they have to choose one or the Other and that’s not a hard Choice Religion why did you just Compare that to a joke I think you’re Right but why why did that connection Occur for you because you’re making People choose what well for me that’s How I would enter anything I would go Okay How there’s a person who is not Religious Or we could even use like uh wait this Person is not religious I would like to Convince that person that religion is Valuable right so and I have bits that I’ve done about this right so what do They hold true what are their other Values maybe they’re very liberal maybe They don’t believe in I mean I don’t Think you have to be liberal to not Believe in slavery we should all not Believe in slavery but here’s another Thing that they would hold true they Disagree with slavery okay now if I Believe that the reason why man has the Right to their their I guess Independence and their freedom is Because I’m a God made individual and God would never make somebody chained Uh then that person has to accept that

God is the reason why slavery is wrong And therefore has to right right okay so There is some okay there is something There’s something definitely there Because a punch line so there’s a There’s a whole line of psychological we Need a punchline still yeah we need a Punchline still but that’s a premise Right yeah right but the punch line is What drives it home You know and one of the things that I Have found I think that what I do on Stage is most analogous to what stand-up Comedians do and the reason for that is That when I do a lecture for example or Try to answer a question yeah there’s Usually an investigation but it has to Build up to a punch line there has to be Yes a culminating moment where it’s Driven home and that’s a moment of Insight and what it does is it takes a Bunch of information that’s sort of Being scattered around and brings it Together and everybody goes Aha and That’s very much like the the the the Climax of a joke and it’s yes it’s part Of insight and so there’s a Psychological literature on insight and Insight seems to develop when a number Of things that weren’t linked together Are suddenly linked together and you go Aha that’s how all that fits together And I mean comedians are doing that all The time because they they were

Explaining the world and sometimes we’re Explaining the world in ways that don’t Really makes sense but they’re funny Connections you know I had a one of the Earlier jokes in my career that worked Was uh you know we were talking a lot About like the oppression of women and I’m like okay maybe it’d be funny if I Could find a justification for the Oppression of women so I said you know The oppression of women is horrible you Know countries that treat women horrible I mean that’s just awful but they have The best food So my Justified like you know nobody’s Ever said you know let’s go out for a Canadian tonight right so to me that’s That’s like the more equal country the Worst the food is and then the more Press of the country the better like I Think one of the lines was uh the more Countries like stay in the kitchen the Better the food comes out of the kitchen You know now these are absurd Concepts But a really funny connectivity right Right I’m justifying something awful but Now all of a sudden everybody in the Room is kind of agreeing like holy [ __ ] Like yeah I’m not a fan of Swedish food I’m not a fan of you know I’m I’ve Really I really love hummus Norwegians eat fermented shark Jesus that’s an argument this is what’s The equality of women right there

Fermented sharks and that’s just not a Good idea so yeah so this is the cans of That stuff I think it’s called Sir Strumming you can’t fly on airplanes With cans of that because they explode So that is not a food you should eat so To me now I don’t have the Responsibility you have which is to be Truthful and right so I can dabble in The wrong and the wrong is so funny but For me like I don’t know I I just love This I love the wrong the rug is great And we allow it allows us to explore Ideas like I got a boxing coach right And uh not not for anything else other Than exercise I just love to do the Sport right but um and he’s from Egypt And he was speaking me in Egyptian Arabic and I thought that like curse Words are a great way of organizing a Society’s hierarchy in values like the Different curse words that they use Right and he was telling me he’ll call Me different curse words he called me uh MIT Naka right which means prostitute Sorry sorry Naka means um a [ __ ] Actually for lack of a better word Uh and then he goes uh charmuta he calls Me which means prostitute he goes now Listen outside of here don’t say mitnaka To anybody that is a horrible word okay You cannot say that do not he’s Basically don’t call anybody a [ __ ] he Goes you can call people sharmuta that’s

Not that bad I go wait wait you’re Saying [ __ ] is worse than prostitute and He goes well you sometimes you have to For money that makes sense but just [ __ ] for pleasure what is wrong with You go [ __ ] your boyfriend or something And I thought it was like such a Beautiful look into culture You know what I’m saying like like there Are dire circumstances that made it more Reasonable to have sex for money because You needed money to survive maybe you Need to help your family and that was Forgiven culturally In this it was it was like understood it Was like you don’t want to do that but At least you’re doing it to support your Family yeah well just curling around the Curse words always touch on taboos right And so taboos would be the worst thing In a society Um the in in in Quebec all the curse Words are Church related Yeah exactly how do you know that why do You know that it’s my job to know these Things So let me ask you again about your Special so it was going to be edited did You know how heavily it was going to be Edited yeah they told me certain jokes That they that they didn’t like and Again I don’t necessarily have Resentment yeah for companies that are Trying to protect themselves I you have

That right as a company I disagree Because I don’t think it is the Protection that you want I think the Ultimate protection is putting out great Content well I love right exactly yeah That’s how you develop the moat but I Think it’s very easy to just go like [ __ ] you guys you guys want to censor Blah blah it’s like yeah I get it you Have a family you have kids in private School you don’t want that maybe Responsibility of putting out the thing That got your company in trouble yada Yada So I don’t have personal resentment it Was frustrating So basically long story short what I did Is uh I bought the special back I and I They could have said no to this but I Was able to buy the special back which Is I’m very grateful for and I put it up On uh my own I put it up on moment Moment is this platform where you can You know stream content so basically pay For people to buy a ticket to watch the Show and then own it in perpetuity so I First did a window there kind of like a Movie right like you go see Batman in The movie theater that’s how I was Thinking about it you go see Batman and Movie theater it’s there in a movie Theater for a couple months and then a Few months after that it’s on cable so I Was like let me try this for comedy I

Put it up here and you know fingers Crossed and it does unbelievably well And I made way more than I would ever Make on the special itself it was the Most money I’ve ever made in my life to Be honest with you and that was moment It was on with moment yeah so like Moment uh yeah moment world is now but It was moment house when I did it but It’s just great company they’ve been Doing these live stream events they do It for bands they do it for Comedians And I’m hoping that this is another Pathway for Comics to put their content Out and have a window where they can Monetize it I mean the beautiful thing About putting your stuff out on YouTube Is it goes to the world but you’re not Able to monetize it in the same way and In order to create a special like the One that we created I mean it costs 400 000 to shoot the specials so right you Have to be able to generate money to do Something that can compete with a a Netflix compete with any of these other And HBO any of these platforms I want to Be able to create that content and put It out there so we put it behind this Window and people came out they Supported it was amazing and then a few Months later I put it out on YouTube Yeah and That I think we’re at eight million Views in a month or something like that

So now I get all the new people all the People who aren’t familiar with me all The people that didn’t know who I Existed and the friends can share it but I was also able to give it to the to the The fans who really have rode for me From the beginning and give them this Experience also the YouTube version I Put uh some ads in yeah yeah yeah Rewards to watch this morning well what Did you charge for the special on moment Uh 15 bucks and how long did you have it Up there before you switched it to YouTube I did two two-week windows so I just did Two weeks and then so many people are Asking for it that I put it back up for Another two weeks a week later and why Did you decide I don’t know in periods I wanted to create urgency I think I Think one of the issues with just having You know like it up is I’ll get to it I Think that’s one of the problems with Content in general like I think Yeah I think I think uh you know there’s This idea with its streaming you’re oh I’ll get to it I’ll get to it and then You never get to it and there’s just so Much that you have to get to and I think That if you create urgency like a boxing Match is we have to watch this tonight An MMA fight we have to watch as a Sporting event we have to so knowing

That there’s this two-week window where You could watch it with no ads and this Was the way it was going to be you know Also there was no telling when I put it On YouTube if they weren’t going to take It down so like this was the only time That you were 100 sure that you could Watch it in its entirety and um it also Created this time where like everybody Well not everybody but a lot of people Watched it at the same time right right So we had a live viewing and it created This communal feeling which we want like I love watching House of dragons you Know the Game of Thrones uh reboot uh I Love watching on Sunday with everybody Else and then going on Twitter and Seeing how people are reacting to it and Taking part in this massive group Experiment and hearing their live Real-time reactions to me this is Awesome so I wanted to create that for a Comedy special and um it was awesome we Were able to do it man yeah yeah yeah Well I’ll have to look into moment that Sounds extremely interesting and then You connect two with them okay okay you Doing you doing one of your lectures for Example on moment like creating this Moment having this moment for all these People to all check in at the exact same Time and they’ve got some other really Cool features too like you can sell Merch while you’re watching it like

There are all these different things That are like easy to to access people Can comment real time on it which is Also so cool but like having this place Where all these people who want to Experience this thing with you be it Live or pre-recorded but before it goes Out to the world and people want to Support that’s another thing I learned Like I’ve given out so many hours of Comedy I’ve given there’s so many people That hit me up and they’re like listen Like you’ve made me laugh with really Through really dark times for years like There are people when I put it up on YouTube started donating money I didn’t Even know that that was a thing that you Could do but they felt guilty that they Didn’t buy it People don’t people don’t really want Something valuable for nothing they want To contribute their part generally Speaking that’s that’s why giving away Things for free in some real sense is a Bad pricing decision And so because it does it does deprive People of the opportunity to reciprocate And they want to be able to reciprocate Yeah so now you’re having I think more Success on the movie front that’s Correct Yeah I’ve been able to do uh some small Roles in some films and um I guess those Are all going to come out I don’t even

Know when they’re going to come out but Uh I want to make a film So Yeah to be honest It’s yeah well I guess I don’t know here Here’s I want to make a film I’m really Excited but I’m really getting into Story now and the power of story and I know I have this theory that like I Think stories I think we have a biological reaction to Stories in the same way that we have to Music You know like yeah like I notice when I’m hanging out with my friends that I’ve known for decades we will retell The same stories that we were all a part Of and every single time our our eyes Light up and we get goosebumps and we Laugh and we get excited and the story’s Morph and change and we get to like Relive them in the same way when a song Comes on that was a song you absolutely Loved or you were going through Something you get to feel all those like Emotions again like you tap two towards Them and like even when somebody tells a Story in a group it’s different than When someone has like a hot take or a Premise it’s like hey this thing Happened everybody shuts up and all of a Sudden we’re like around the campfire For some reason yeah so I’m I’m one I’m Curious your take on what that is about

Us and story is it like our earliest Version of digesting information well I Think I think we this I’m writing a new Book called we who wrestle with God and That’s really what it’s about um uh it Looks to me like I think it’s incontrovertible in some Sense that we see the world through a Story And so if you’re out with your friends And you’re telling a shared story then You’re you’re literally building the You’re literally building the shared set Of assumptions that constitutes the Friendships And so so think about the think about The leftist Take On The World so the Leftist take is something like the Fundamental story is one of power and The relationships between people are Structured as a consequence of power That’s true for marriages it’s true for History it’s true for the Western Canon It’s true for economic interactions it’s All about power Well that’s a story and it’s not a very Good story by the way and it’s also not A story that unites or reflects reality In an accurate manner because Social relationships are only predicated On power when they become corrupt So well if you have to force someone to Be your friend That’s just not working very well if you

Have to force your wife to pay attention To you then the bloody situation is Degenerated if you have to force your Children to listen all the time then You’re not mutually acting out a very Good story And so the question is what’s the story That’s the antithesis of power And I think the antithesis of power is Play Hmm if you’re if you’re ensconced in a Good story then what you’re doing is Playing this is one of the reasons it’s I really like watching comedians because They’re playing all the time and I think You I think that play the spirit of play Is actually the antithesis of the spirit Of power let me tell you something that Will prove your theory and I have to Give credit to my uh podcast uh co-host And uh just creative partner and so many Things about Mark Gagnon but we I took Him to uh this thing called Burning Man This past year and his reflection on Burning man was he goes it’s just adult Play I go what do you mean he goes think About the whole thing is adult play now To tap into the power thing Burning Man Is what happens when you remove power There’s no currency you cannot buy Anything and there’s no restriction in Terms of your ability to enter once You’re there every party is welcome to Everybody every place is welcome to

Everybody you can’t even buy things you Just give so you remove traditional Power structure and hierarchy what is Left for humans Play dress how you want to dress dance How you want to [ __ ] dance party How You Wanna Party be silly prank one Another but play is the absence of power Wow that’s kind of cool well look look At well look at what happened I used to Go work out with a couple of my friends In in Boston and uh we used to try to Make each other laugh when we were bench Pressing because as soon as you laugh You lose all your muscular control and So it’s obvious that play and humor are Antithetical to power because as soon as You laugh you’re powerless you click uh You you I think I I think I talked to Theo Vaughn about this the comedian his Mother had a very strange condition if He made her laugh she would actually Fall asleep Yeah she’d lose so much muscular control That she would fall asleep he said he Used to try doing try making her laugh When she was driving yeah yeah which Seems like you know not the wisest thing To do but he apparently wasn’t the Wisest child at least by his own Admission Well he was curious he was playing yeah Yeah yeah so so this is a very lovely Thing to know I think

And then the right Tail is one that enables people to play Along But that’s and that’s a beautiful thing It’s like when I hang out with my my Friends like when we have those moments Together That is what we’re engaging in we’re Engaging with this ball busting we’re Engaging with this play and we’re Engaging with these storytelling that These stories always share something About who one of us is or who we all are You know oh blah blah blah uh loves big Girls remember when we were doing this And he had that girl man she wasn’t that Big blah blah and now it’s like um I’m not gonna make a parallel to the Bible but like there’s a reason why the Bible didn’t just say just do these Things there’s a reason why they put Them in story right because it’s far More impactful to to listen to this Story and I wonder if like through Osmosis the behavior in the stories kind Of get locked into our long-term memory Where if you just tell someone a rule It’s short term and it might be fleeting Well the the thing about having the rule Embodied in the story is you see how It’s acted out Eh So and then that’s much more convincing To watch how something’s acted out

Partly because then you also know how to Act it out right if it’s just a rule you Have to translate the rule into action But if it’s a story then the actions are Laid out for you You know and they say that every story Has a moral and in some sense that would Be the rule of the story But it’s not necessarily always that Easy to extract out the rule but you can Still understand the story Yeah yeah I’m really I want to do a deep Dive and like I just think I think one Of the issues with Hollywood right now To be honest and like why some of these Films just don’t make sense or so many Of them don’t is because the the creator Of the idea is so far removed from the Executor of the project yeah so like hey Here’s a great idea for a movie blah Blah blah and then someone goes I’m Gonna buy that from you that’s great Thank you so much and then we’re gonna Go make it and they’re making with all These people that are also kind of Detached from the project if you look at The writer directors Their movies hit at a much higher rate Yeah it’s not only because maybe they’re More talented but it’s because they’re Invested in the project all the way Through it means something if that Project fails because their identity is Wrapped into it a random person that

Gets thrown on a project a random writer That does punch-up that’s not even Credit they also they also benefit from The success so you know you were talking About these censorship proclivities so One of the things I observed in uh in Court in the corporate world when I was Attempting to sell to Middle managers Was that If they bought something from me and it Failed they would get blamed That would happen but if they bought Something for me and it was very Successful for the company they wouldn’t Get credited Oh they wouldn’t no because of this dis Because so I’ll give you an example we Were selling these tests psychological Tests and uh to to a group of people who Were doing the hiring and they said well They got budgeted on the cost side so Every cent they spend on hiring would be Um would be credited to them right as an Expense But if they hired much better people and The company did well that wouldn’t be Credited to them as a as a uh Accomplishment because the the the value Would go to someone else it wouldn’t be Directly attributed to them and so what Happened to them was that there was an Outside risk to each of them for acting In an entrepreneurial manner And very little upside if it was

Successful and you can imagine in a Hollywood production for example that Isn’t spearheaded by a writer director If it’s successful he’s going to be Wildly successful now he has to shoulder The blame too but if it’s distributed Among a bunch of people then they’re Going to get blamed if something goes Wrong but if it goes real well they’re Not going to get credited Exactly yeah yeah so and that’s how you Have a shitty project maybe you get Lucky and it ends up working out but but Yeah I think that I like shouldering That blame I’ll take the risk on myself With these projects like that I that I Want to do like I don’t mind that if it Fails it’s on me I can take that that That’s motivating that’s exciting You know and I also believe in myself And the people that I work with that we Can execute these things so But it’s it’s what happens is if you do The if you run a business like that you Create a bottleneck you know like I I I Even went through this when I was Editing the special and we were editing The special you know I edit it with uh Mark and uh and Shifty who are Absolutely brilliant and we sat in there And we edited it took us one day for Each minute of the special Hmm so for one 60 seconds it took us a Day of editing and we did that for until

It was done now nobody’s edited a comedy Special like this but he’s usually the Editors so far removed from the comic or It’s already with another production Company or it’s already at one of these Streaming things but for me in order for It to be as good and as nuanced and as Beautiful as it is in order for me to Take you into the room we need to edit It that way like we were watching horror Movies To see how they built tension and then Released it yeah because that’s comedy It’s tension release so if you have slow Pushes while you’re building the tension And then uh removal when it’s released Or like you zoom out when it’s really It’s like okay let’s use that let’s Apply that how can we make you feel the Tension that you won’t feel because You’re watching it through a screen how Can we bring you into the room you know So so that’s interesting so did you Focus in while you were building the Tension and then snap out Yeah well why did you decide that’s very Interesting because that actually that Actually corresponds to different Hemispheric function So the left hemisphere Zooms in and the Right hemisphere zooms out and that the Right hemisphere is responsible for Insight and the left hemisphere for Detailed processing and so you seem to

Have you seem to have intuited something Like that in that editing process that’s Very cool so you zoom in and then when The punch line hits you can you can snap To a broader perspective Will often hit a punch line on a zoom in But sometimes a punch line is a Misdirection and by zooming in Immediately we would be telegraphing it So what we would do is leave it in let’s Say a cowboy shot or something like this So we could catch you off guard because Catching you off guard is very important Right but maybe on a big laugh we let The room breathe we were able to show The audience laughing as well I think There’s a communal aspect when you’re at A comedy club you see other people Laughing and that’s beautiful it’s Cathartic you’re like okay I’m free I Can let loose here so we want to we want To show shots where other people are Laughing so you felt comfortable you Could get caught up in that momentum so It’s like approaching the editing Process with the same passion love and Creativity that we approached writing The jokes and creating the show yeah Well that definitely definitely one of The things that stand-up comedians are Doing is providing a communal theater For free play And it’s definitely free because you Can’t compel someone to laugh you can’t

Even compel yourself to laugh not Genuinely it has to be it has to come From the source right it either strikes You as funny before you think or it’s Not funny at all and there is something I think extremely Stress relieving to be among a lot of Other people who are laughing at the Same thing because it means you’re all Being you’re all playing spontaneously Together without fear and that’s that’s Almost like the definition of no stress Exactly and one of the things that we Like specifically did like like I would Say that my audience is by far the most Diverse audience in in stand-up now the Advantage of that is and one of the Things that I learned is I was going Through stand up and I like to make fun Of everybody because I’m curious about Everybody and I learned these things About people that I think are like Really funny so when I organize them Into jokes I also like to talk about it Doesn’t only have to be like me I’m not Very self-centered with my comedy which Is not necessarily a bad thing but I’d Like talking about topics other people Cultures Etc these things are all Interesting to me Um but what I realized is we were going Through this very like woke time where a White dude a straight white dude like me Making fun of you know somebody from

Ethiopia might be crazy right but what I Realized is if that Ethiopian person was There and I’m talking to them and doing The joke to them and they’re laughing Nobody can be offended yeah yeah right Peterson does that very well eh I mean Brilliantly he’s great brilliant man Because he he’s an equal opportunity Offender and his uh and it’s so Interesting to watch his audiences Because you can just you can almost feel The tension in the different ethnic Groups in the audience waiting for their Chance to be made fun of and it’s they Want it well yeah it’s because I think At a deep level they want to show that They can play along with the joke you Know the two things they want to play Along and they want to show the game but They also like representation in a Creative clever way yeah so like this is Something I learned without realizing But like I would do these Joe folks About random random groups right that Just you know knowledge I picked up over The years and then because the internet Exists in these Echo Chambers those Jokes will go viral in those communities Right right right so the Bosnian Community would hear about a joke I did About some bosnians in St Louis there’s A big Bosnia Community there but it Would go crazy viral not only here but In the Bosnian communities but in like

Bosnia and the beauty of this is They felt represented not in a hacky way They felt represented in a cool way they Didn’t know that people knew this about Them they thought it was just their Community and then they’re seeing it on A YouTube page with millions of views And the world is laughing at it as well Laughing is something they might be Proud of and they’re cool with being Represented in that way yeah when you do That the community wants to share it They want to be part of it yeah It’s an invitation to the universal Table in some sense right it’s it’s a Place where everybody and that’s what is So wonderful about stand-up comedy it’s Like a it’s like a it’s like a music Concert right it’s the same sort of Thing is that people can go there and And enjoy something spontaneously Communally and yeah play together and I’m really happy by the way about this Insight about play you know I think if You if you had to set the world up and You wanted to figure out what the best Story you could possibly tell is that Would be an antidote to the the Depredations of power it does seem to me That a story about play is the right one Because there’s nothing more what are we Going to do this weekend what are we Going to do this weekend what are people Around the world going to do this

Weekend Exactly they’re going to play with death They’re going to play with the most Terrifying thing in the world yeah right The most offensive costumes but also the Idea of death is which which spawn it we Need it it’s and I Gotta Give Louis CK Credit on this like Louie had a uh he Was talking about comedy and it’s like Making offensive jokes has existed for Centuries it would have been weeded out If there wasn’t something that we needed If there wasn’t some catharsis in it the Idea of Halloween like playing with Death is crazy if you really think about It especially for earlier societies the Most terrifying thing in the world to Just Dabble with it and joke with it and Scare people we need it we want that Release we want that place well the Alternative the alternative is to run in Terror from it and hide and all that Does the thing about that is all it does Is make it worse yeah and so I think You know here’s another way of thinking About it so When I was Training people who were agrophobic to Get back on elevators let’s say We basically did that by playing And so the way it would work was all Right I’m afraid of this elevator I Can’t get on this elevator I’ll have a

Panic attack my heart rate will go up to 150 Beats from per minute I think I’m Gonna die I’m gonna make a fool of Myself it’s just I’m going to want to go To the emergency room it’s it’s going to Be humiliating and dangerous it’s just a Catastrophe it’s death I had a client Who actually said when the elevator’s Door is open she said that’s a tube and So she was she was afraid of dying in There and so in a sense what we would do Is play because I would say well you Can’t get on the elevator she said That’s right and I said well you know Can you look at a picture of an elevator In a magazine it’s like well I think I Could do that and so that’s on the edge Of play right it’s like well it’s a bit Challenging and it’s a bit threatening But I could do it and then maybe you Have the person go out in the hallway And you know they can walk within 40 Feet of the elevator and so you find That line it’s a line right where the Person is willing to willing to walk up To that line and then one step farther And that’s really again what you’re Doing when you’re telling a joke it’s You’re finding that line and then you’re Walking one step farther and and we Manifest that Spirit of play and it Helps expose people to the things they Don’t want to think about In a safe environment it exposes them in

A safe way yeah right because we all Know that we’re playing it’s just like It’s honestly it’s like flirting you’re Flirting with a girl are you flirting With a guy flirting is finding that line Of what is polite and then being funny Enough to go a little bit past it and Now everybody’s in that little naughty Territory yeah it’s still safe because We’re playing it’s not like you’re Coming on too strong or like grabbing People or anything like that you’re Being naughty you’re flirting you’re Like yeah what if we were what if we Were married where would we go on Vacation and the girl’s like what are You talking about I just met you what do You mean we’re married and now we’re Creating this hypothetical scenario Where we’re both dancing the dance and It’s safe because it’s play yeah we’re Able well you know that says I think That’s also how women evaluate men while They’re dancing Is like well can you play right are you All hands are you are you two you know Dead set on your instrumental goal or Can you control yourself well enough to Play and it’s got to be to dance Properly is to be in that flirtatious Zone exactly and that also indicates That you’re responding to the cues that The other person is putting out there in The most accurate possible way right now

You’re going to be pushing slightly Because you want to find out where the Boundary is and that’s probably what Makes it exciting but if you’re just Rampaging in past all the boundaries Then you’re just a dimwit yeah it may be A dangerous one so and that’s yeah and That’s the problem with politics is There’s no play it’s boring it’s binary It’s there’s no fun whatsoever Everything that you say can get you Canceled for this or cancel with that Nobody’s just allowing it to to just Play and I will give Trump Credit in This regard yeah he was just up there Playing like he didn’t give a [ __ ] he’s Like I’m gonna make fun of this guy for Being short I’m gonna make fun of this Person for killing everybody I’m gonna Make fun of everybody on the stage and People reacted to play they also reacted To like you know him speaking on things That their Fringe groups cared about but There was an element of play yeah you Know I was given a book and Unfortunately I didn’t keep it which was A big mistake which was someone had Published quite a beautiful book it Looked like a kind of a leather-bound Library copy you know a a classic book It was the collected poetry of Donald Trump And then what they had done was taken His tweets and turned them into poems

Page one page after page and I gotta Tell you man they were hilariously funny It’s funny it was unbelievably funny He’s unbelievably caustically witty yeah And yep yeah yeah well and that was Certainly one of one of his Charming Features like Megan Megan Kelly and Shout Out Megan I Love Megan but Megyn Kelly goes you’ve Called women pigs and you’ve called Women uh ogres or something like that And he was like just Rosie O’Donnell That’s a funny playful thing to say on The world stage you know calling uh What’s her face uh Pocahontas is funny Like it exposed politics in a lot of way Because if somebody’s having fun that’s Infectious especially if they’re having Fun around everyone else who is not You’ve been in these stuffy dinners I’m Sure they invite you all the time and There is a table that’s laughing and Goofing around and having it is Impossible not to look over at it it’s Impossible not to see what’s happening Where is this fun and why are you guys Having so much fun you enjoying Yourselves so so I have a theory of Leadership and you tell me what you Think about this so Imagine that all leaders are confronting Dragons of one sort or another Okay now the question is are you the man For that Dragon because some of them are

Large enough to burn you very rapidly to A crisp And so you might say well how do we Judge that how do we know if you’re the If you’re the Knight for that particular Dragon and here’s a good rule if you’re Frightened into paralysis or tempted Towards tyranny in your attempts to deal With the dragon which is this is so Catastrophic that I have to panic and Everyone has to listen to exactly what I Say then you’re too small for the dragon And you’re not the right leader And so I was thinking about this in Relationship to the climate crisis it’s Like if the if carbon dioxide transforms You into a paralyzed Tyrant you’re not The right man for the environmental job And then you might say well who would The right man be and that might be Someone who can approach that particular Dragon with a certain degree of play And and what would that be so give give Me what what is the play how do we play With the environment well I would say we At least agree not to put in Rules by Compulsion Yes right so here’s a rule no rules Instituted by compulsion because it’s Bad play it’s like you have to do this It’s like that’s because that’s a bad Policy If you can’t get me to go along with it Willingly then you’re a tyrant and you

Think the crisis is so important that You get to be a tyrant but that just Shows that you’re not a very good leader Yeah yeah don’t you think I mean so yeah You don’t get to say you have to do this Not if you’re not if you’re a good Leader you have to say here’s a bunch of Reasons you have to tell a story back to What we were talking about earlier I Have to tell you a story and you think Yeah man I could get on board with that I’m all in on that and that’s a much Better Arrangement anyways because then I don’t have to enforce your compliance You know you talked about these projects That you were engaged in creatively if You want them to work everybody’s got to Be on board right if you’re going around Hitting people to make them listen to You then you’re almost inevitably Dooming the project to failure because First of all they’re not going to be all In and second they’re going to take the Revenge where they can get it Yes they have to believe in the project As well they have to be pot committed as Well they have to believe in you Especially if you’re their leader yeah I Mean the dragon the dragon metaphor you Can almost see day to day with like bull Fighting I know it’s unfair because they Stab and wound the bull Etc but like he He’s not terrified of the bull running Away he’s stared at the ball he’s

Dancing with the dragon yeah that’s for Sure Exactly it’s yeah with death it’s the Same as Halloween man it’s the same Thing to play with so why do we need That maybe that’s maybe that’s how we Understand comedy maybe that’s how we Understand Halloween maybe that’s how we Understand like the darker sides of our Nature and people probably just want to Ignore them but maybe I can give you an Example of that so I was just on the Via Dolorosa with Jonathan paggio who’s a Greek Orthodox Christian thinker who’s Also an expert on post-modern Theory and We went to Jerusalem we did a uh Documentary there which will be released Sometime in the next six months and we Walked the 12 Stations of the Cross in Jerusalem and then we went to the Church Of the Holy Sepulcher which is founded On the crucifixion spot and you might Say well what were we doing and what is Everybody doing who’s walking that road And the answer is they’re playing with Tragedy and death Interesting that is that is what’s Happening so you imagine that the Crucifix itself is a symbol of torturous Death Well why would people be gazing at it And the answer is well because you have To gaze upon that which frightens and Terrifies you because otherwise you

Can’t master it and so each of those Stations of the Cross you know which are Marked out both mythologically and Geographically because it isn’t certain Where each of those events occurred Let’s say it’s a it’s a play it’s a Passion play and the passion is look man Sometimes you’re gonna have to die and Sometimes you’re going to be exposed to Betrayal and sometimes you’re going to Be under the thumb of a tyrant and Sometime you’re going to be questioned About Truth by a moral relativist and And sometimes criminals are going to be Preferred to you that’s all going to Happen to you in your life and you Bloody well better get ready for it and The way you get ready for it is by Playing with it by playing with it you Bet yeah that’s that’s exactly what’s Happening in those in those religious Rituals is it’s play with death Yeah it’s it’s I mean I I was there as Well I you know you’ve got to touch the Stone and while I was you know the I was At the uh not anointing Stone what is The stone where where he where Jesus Body was wrapped up yeah you mean in the In the whole in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher yeah yeah right that’s where That’s where he was wrapped after after The crucifix yeah and it was a beautiful Moment and I saw people you know Touching it and I wanted to touch it but

I also was feeling naughty I was like This is such this is such an important Place in history and I was wowed by the Fact that I could actually touch this Thing where like Jesus body was also There but because of those high stakes I Was like oh what’s the naughty thing That we could do over here you know and I think that that dance we have is why Theme parks exist like why are we on Roller coasters yeah you know we want to Face it that’s why we go to horror Movies too which is really a very Difficult thing to understand and it is It is you know this the the fundamentals Spirit of religious affirmation I would Say is to is to play with catastrophe Fundamentally right and so and the Reason we have to play with catastrophe Is because we have to face catastrophe And so there’s all sorts of things we do That appear very strangely like you said Amusement parks are a good example of That because they they push you to the Limits of your physical tolerance and They do it in a way that is constrained Danger and horror movies obviously do That psychologically Yeah it’s like sparring yeah you know Like sparring prepares you for fighting In life but you do it in a more safe Environment yeah it allows you to be More calm and comfortable in those Circumstances that happen in life that

Are not going to be calm and comfortable Otherwise yeah yeah That’s all part of that Dragon Confrontation process is that you know You want to find a dragon that’s large Enough to pose some threat but that you Have a reasonable chance of overcoming And then what you have is an optimal Challenge instead of something that Terrifies you and then you build the Challenges across time you know and That’s what you do as you become Competent Think think about you’ve seen the rise In popularity of Jiu Jitsu right yeah Um and obviously we got to give our good Friend Joe Rogan credit for this MMA Credit for This Dana White but Jiu Jitsu is the closest you can come to Death while training because if somebody Chokes you and you don’t tap you just Die right you know what I’m saying like In boxing you know you get knocked out You get back up like it takes a lot of Brain trauma with like really small Gloves to be killed while you’re Sparring I don’t think you’re getting Killed while you’re sparring and boxing You got the headgear the gloves are much Bigger but in Jiu Jitsu if someone just Keeps choking you and there isn’t enough Oxygen that gets your brain you could Potentially die I could see why people Like playing with that yeah I could see

It it’s fun well you know what you’ll Find what you find in therapy it’s very Very interesting there’s a large body of Research supporting this so the idea First of all was that if you expose People to things they were afraid of and You paired that with a relaxation Response they would learn to relax Instead of being afraid But then it was rapidly discovered that You didn’t have to teach them to relax And that kind of blew the whole Theory Because the theory was they had learned To be afraid and now you were teaching Them to relax it’s like nope all you Have to do is expose them voluntarily And they get better and then the theory Was well they’ll get better in Relationship to the specific thing You’re exposing them to but the symptoms Will just crop up somewhere else Yeah yeah but that also proved to be Wrong and it was because you know when My client said this is a tomb when the Elevator doors opened what it showed was She wasn’t confronting the elevator She was confronting her fear of death And she really was doing that and what She was learning was that by putting Herself in a position where she was Confronting the threat of death She could observe that she could Actually handle it And then she got braver and that’s what

Happens to people in Psychotherapy when You use exposure therapy is they don’t Become less afraid they become braver And that generalizes and so what they See is that there’s something within Them that can overcome even the things They’re most afraid of and that’s well That’s a good thing to talk about in Relationship to Halloween because I mean Halloween plays with death and Decay and Predation and monstrosity and everything That’s dark and it’s become an immense Holiday And I think it is because our culture is So sanitized that we take everything That Smacks of death away and hide it and you Know to some degree thank God for that Yeah but it still presents us with this Conundrum which is well we have to face The arfinitude and our mortality and how Best to do that and the answer has to be Something like In a spirit of play God it’s a hell of a Thing to think about when you’re Thinking about death itself But How brave of us today yeah well That’s exactly right man and I think That’s actually a good question right How brave of us question mark and the Answer to that might be well How brave Can you be and God only knows how Brave You can be maybe you can be brave enough To play with death

And and this is why discourse has Completely Fallen apart because there’s No room to play yeah there’s no room to Say the wrong thing there’s no sparring Session there’s no Halloween there’s no Trying out the jokes trying out the Ideas it is death It’s not play yeah it’s not even a Practice Yeah well that’s the problem With cancel culture you know well you Know I I learned years ago when I was Lecturing at Harvard I was talking about Very serious things about the Holocaust And about the catastrophes and Soviet Union and all of that absolute abysmal Hellish mess and there was a little Voice in the back of my head that said You know you’re too serious about this If you really mastered it you could do It in a spirit of play and I thought oh My God you know really how can that Possibly be when discussing things that Seriously how could you possibly do that In a spirit of play and the answer would Be something like Well if you really Mastered it You could and that the Mastery would be Evident in the fact that you were Playing now that didn’t really tell me How right because it’s still a big Problem of how you do that yeah but um But I do believe it’s true I believe It’s fundamentally true is that the Mastery that someone

Demonstrates over a given subject domain Is precisely proportionate to the degree That they can do it in the spirit of Play Yes 100 yeah yeah how do you play with These like dark these dark tricky topics I think that was even with the Kanye Thing I think that was was so tricky is Like especially with the anti-Semitism That was bubbling out yeah I think Anti-Semitism is this like it’s such a Unique form of hate because one most People are not familiar with juice Most people so if you’re not familiar With them You haven’t spoken to them and and Talked to them about how they react to This and two the way that we get taught Like world history at least in America Is that like Germany was regular and Then all of a sudden one day they just Started hating Jews and then they were Putting them in concentration camps we Don’t get taught what what Hitler used And Goebbels use to build up the Resentment for the Jews that’s not Really spoken about to us so I think a Lot of when the Jews hear these things Like they run the media they run the Banks it’s red flag it goes uh oh this Is how it starts this is it’s happening And then when non-jews hear it they go Well those sound like some pretty cool Stereotypes I mean imagine imagine

Someone like a black friend of mine who Wears glasses even that though he Doesn’t have a prescription so people Think he’s less threatening when he’s Walking down the street imagine his Reaction to hearing The Stereotype own The banks run the media own sports teams He’s going give me those stereotypes Right now because he’s unfamiliar with What those stereotypes lead to So there’s this huge Chasm with Understanding the hate of a group of People and how those things which seem Complementary they seem [ __ ] Aspirational like you want to be able to Be in power positions but we because we Haven’t been taught that those are the Things that first are said before you Dehumanize a group of people and then Kill six million of them Yeah well part of the problem with uh With the with the discourse about about The Jewish minority is the Jews are Disproportionately successful for all Sorts of reasons and so that that fact Easily feeds into conspiratorial Thinking right partly because minorities Are annoying you know but they’re not Nearly as annoying when they’re Unsuccessful Because at least they can what would you Call a tone for the sin of being a Minority by being oppressed and Miserable and so that’s you know a

Positive thing but if they’re you’re Saying Then they’re really annoying it’s Because not only are they a minority but You know it’s easy to become envious and Then it’s also easy to presume that it’s Some sort of conspiratorial uh practice On the part of that Minority that’s Giving them an advantage over you know You who’s striving ahead so nobly You’re giving a hypothetical to how the Majority sees minorities not how you see Minorities yes yes [Music] Will have done the same thing I could See a clip look minorities are annoying But especially the the rich ones yeah I Mean yeah like yeah yeah you can be sure The Young Turks are going to clip that Out [Laughter] But yes yeah I see yeah I know I just See I saw it kind of happening in real Time and I’m planning to talk to him Soon I think Say again I’m planning to talk to Kanye Soon I think and and what are your what Are your thoughts about that have you Have you had Yeah what what is your thinking with That well I’d like to find out what’s Going on I mean he’s a stunningly Creative person and he seems like a bit Too much of a treasure just to throw in

The dust bin You know obviously he’s got his problems Like most people do and the thing about Geniuses is they have lots of problems Just like Ordinary People but they’re Also geniuses Yes yes that’s a good thing to keep in Mind I think that Kanye’s genius Outside of music I think he’s an Incredibly gifted producer but I think Kanye’s genius is his ability to Influence and then the ability of then The genius of influence Seeps into industries that are Completely subjective fashion Is nothing Fastlane is if you can get the most Influential people to wear a garbage bag That is cool now Things go in and out of style Skinny jeans are cool then baggy jeans Become cool yeah there’s not a specific Cut that makes them good there’s an edge You know just just like the edge we were Talking about in comedy and fashion Comes imagine there’s a social hierarchy Yep fashion goes from the top down it Even happens with names and so there’s There’s a there’s a standard trajectory Of names The aristocracy picks names whatever the Aristocracy happens to be then those Names become popularized till everyone

Has them then they go out of fashion and Then they disappear for a number of Generations and then the aristocracy Rediscovers them and the names Cascade Down the hierarchy again fashion is all About being on the edge just like comedy Right is like are you with it are you Awake are you on The Cutting Edge and That changes Exactly because and I I would say it Doesn’t start at the top of the Aristocracy but I’m just you know we’re Just pulling what is it I’m nitpicking Whatever but essentially fashion what is Cool is a rejection of what is popular Cool will always be the rejection of Popular right right so what happens is The skinny jeans become ubiquitous and Then you start seeing them in the mall Stores yes and then there’s a Target There’s a exactly target has them and Then there’s a small group of like cool Kids that exists in a few different Areas that start rejecting the norm even Before they’re in Target yeah those kids Once the thing is in Target because They’re such uh I don’t want to say the Devil’s Advocates or Counter Culture Whatever it is those kids are the wheel Influencers they get copied by a guy Like Kanye and then Kanye’s influence Puts his clothing on a bunch of other Famous people who have influence and Then it trickles down to me other people

Etc Those kids those kids the influence is That you’re talking about those are the Aristocracy among their age group They’re the creative kids that are on The edge No that’s that’s fair that’s fair within Their peer group they’re the coolest or They’re The Outsiders that nobody thinks Is no they’re probably the coolest let’s Say they’re the coolest but yeah you Know is you’ve got it exactly right you Can be cool and an outsider at the same Time and that’s a real artist right I Mean yeah yeah yeah yeah so all right You know we should stop because we’ve Been going for well quite a long time It’s uh go go it’s been a pleasure to Talk to you I should let everybody Watching and listening know that I’m Going to talk to Andrew for another half An hour behind the daily wire plus Platform we’re going to talk more Biographically I want to find out Exactly how he shaped his career Hello everyone I would encourage you to Continue listening to my conversation With my guest on

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