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00:00 Intro
01:39 Becoming a dating coach
05:51 Your breakthrough at the Tony Robbins event
13:13 Getting into public speaking
19:59 Stealing like an artist, fears and taking risks
32:31 Rewriting myths about dating & the handkerchief metaphor
40:49 Modern day handkerchiefs
44:33 Two hit theory
53:06 Stages of deep and lasting attraction
01:02:55 The importance of compatibility
01:08:21 Is there a difference between dating advice for men and women?
01:21:55 Your advantages can become your weaknesses
01:34:10 How much is attraction a choice?
01:44:21 Long term relationships & the honeymoon phase
Season 4 Episode 12
Now more than ever dating apps seem to be the sole focus of people’s attention as far as finding relationships are concerned. But mostly it’s because it feels like there’s no alternative. So how do you actually break through the two dimensional world of online dating (with it’s ghosting, red flags, icks and all) and start attracting real-life long lasting relationships? In this episode I sit down for a conversation with Matthew Hussey, one of the worlds leading dating experts and New York Times Bestselling author who has helped over 10 million people get the love life of their dreams. In the episode we start by discussing how Matthew found himself in the world of dating and relationships before uncovering his formulas for getting over the gear of approaching someone in-person, understanding the components of deep and lasting attraction and attracting true love that lasts well beyond the honeymoon phase. Enjoy!
🔗 CONNECT WITH MATTHEW
🎥 YouTube Channel – @thematthewhussey
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💌 Find Your Dating Solution Here –
💪 Discover How To Move On After Heartbreak –
🔗 CONNECT WITH ALI
📚 Download my FREE 100 Books To Live Your Best Life Reading List –
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📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED
Get The Guy By Matthew Hussey –
How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie –
Awaken The Giant Within: How to Take Immediate Control of Your Mental, Emotional, Physical and Financial Life by Tony Robbins –
The Game by Neil Strauss –
Lewis Howes –
Models: Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson –
Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience by Brene Brown –
Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence by Esther Perel –
📄SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT
Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation –
🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST
Deep Dive is the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators and other inspiring people to uncover the philosophies, strategies and tools that help us live happier, healthier and more productive lives.
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I know it all sounds kind of heady but This stuff is real there will be people Listening to this who says Ah does it All need to be so difficult can't you Just be yourself and the answer is no You shouldn't be someone you're not but People Define being themselves as Holding on to all of the things that Make them make bad decisions that's not Being yourself that's that's not healing Matthew has many many clips on YouTube And social media that have gone Absolutely viral and he's one of the World's most famous dating coaches in Particular dating coaches for women he's Written a book called get the guy which Became a New York Times bestseller my Friend said to me my dad goes to this Guy Tony Robbins every year he's doing The Excel Center do you want to come I Couldn't believe that someone could Command the room like that and so that Was this Fusion of what I loved to learn About with a delivery that I was Astounded by at that point I just Thought this is this is something I need To be close to somehow Annie makes Videos on his YouTube channel with over 2 million subscribers and also his Podcast giving people advice on their Love lives and dating and relationships The health of your relationship isn't Two-dimensional it's not just how many Things have I done for my partner today
We lose our value in dating When we stop paying attention the Consequences of ignoring what I'm saying Are a life of suffering Just a very quick thing before we get Started if you have not yet subscribed To the podcast either on YouTube or in Your favorite podcast app of choice then Please do it really helps us out a lot I Would love if we can just start with you So you've been doing this I guess career in inverted commas as Like a sort of dating relationship coach Expert you do videos you've got courses You've got Retreats How did how did how did all this start And like what's I guess been the Trajectory of your career in this in This over time because I'd love to dig Into the the details I what where did I Start I well I I was 11 years old I Think around about 10 or 11 when I was Rummaging through my dad's bookshelf And he always wherever we lived and we Went through very different Financial Circumstances as a kid but whether we Lived somewhere lovely or not so lovely There was always a bookshelf My dad was very interested in Self-development so he had How to Win Friends and Influence People on his Bookshelf and I One Day picked it up and Was hooked very quickly I think I was a very shy kid
So the idea that you could learn How to be in the world in a way that Would make more of an impact or make Social situations less Scary uh that was very very compelling To me and when I read how to win friends Influence people and Influence People I Thought I had discovered some sort of Secret scroll that no one else knew About I didn't realize it was a big book Do you know what I mean there was Nothing that said you know best seller On the title or anything I just I Thought wow I found something here that Can really really make a difference And I used to go into school and sort of Practice what I'd learned on teachers And you know like I was almost more Comfortable actually doing It with adults than I was people my own Age still couldn't talk to a girl at School still terrified of that but I I Started to use it with adults and I had A DJing A career when I was a teenager Um that lasted for nearly a decade and That was it was very useful in that you Know I knew I remember going to to do Sort of gigs for people my age but very Quickly realizing that it was the Parents that it was great to make Relationships with Um you know and and I would go after the Gig and hang out with the parents and
Talk to them and so then I I ended up Going I got dragged by a friend's father I say I got dragged he got dragged my Friend who who was my age Said to me my dad goes to this guy Tony Robbins every year um he's playing he's Doing the Excel Center I have to go do you want to come I have A I have a ticket to bring a friend and I he what he didn't know is that I'd Already read Tony Robbins book by that I Think I was about 14 at the time I'd Already read his book I'd already read How to Win Friends and Influence People I'd already been on my own little Self-development journey in private And so the opportunity to go was Actually wildly exciting more exciting Than I let on yeah to him And I went and it became the marriage of All of this content that was really Exciting to me and suddenly a an ability In delivery That I had never seen before I hadn't Seen it in any of my teachers at school I hadn't seen it anywhere else in life I I just thought I couldn't believe that Someone could command a room like that And And so that then became like that was This Fusion of what I loved to learn About with a delivery that I was Astounded by and that sort of set me on A path I won't say at that point I knew
What I wanted to do at that point I just Thought This is this is something I need to be Close to somehow which has always been a Theme of my life I always think if you Like something you just don't worry About what that means exactly just Find a way to get close to it somehow And and that's where it started Um so everyone I've ever met who's been Been to a Tony Robbins event has just Like says that oh my God like seeing it In real life is just a completely Different experience to watching it on TV or on DVD tape or whatever it was Back in the day what was that experience Like for you and when you were 14. It It was genuinely electrifying I remember Just I have such good memories of that Because I felt like we were as actually Two friends he brought me and this other Guy and the three of us just sat there We didn't sit with his dad with the Three of us just got to sit there and we Had the greatest time and I remember Just sort of that feeling of oh people Just Dance here but there's no no one's Judging anyone else we're just we can Just have a dance and be silly you know Oh there's people crying here but no One's sort of judging the fact that You're crying or going through something It was a very it was a very very
Interesting environment and it was And it was just you know Tony is Unbelievable at what he does and to to Be in the crowd as a recip you know What's you know what's cool I think the More you get involved in coaching Yourself or speaking or whatever The harder it becomes to be a just a Truly vulnerable and active participant In somebody else's shirt right yeah and That's a shame and it shouldn't be that Way and and I fight against that and I I Try to just go and live as a like really Experience something As as Matthew not as someone who in his Own life then works with people because I think when she once you develop that Skin it's sort of over for you the the Learning the growth the vulnerability is Over for you and that's the beginning of Just Stagnation so but back then I didn't Have anything to prove to anyone I Didn't have to seem like I had it all Together in any way shape or form and And so just I just got to To be a participant and now that was Lovely oh amazing yeah I really want to Go to attorney Robbins event at some Point um his team invited us to Something that was virtual and we Thought oh you know the real life thing Could be interesting um you should you Should go because it's it's there's
Something look what you know obviously Anyone could think what they like about The content how useful it is to them Everyone has to make their own mind up But I there is something to be learned For everyone in Being in a room like that and and so Even just to learn about Impact or persuasion or making a case or How to how to public speak even you know How to how to how to have that kind of Impact on a room full of people I don't Everyone can learn the idea that anyone Could go into a room like that and just Go there's nothing for me here I don't Understand that mindset because you kind Of I remember Going back years later When I was doing a lot of public Speaking and I remember going and saying To myself okay I am go this time I'm gonna go and I'm Just gonna go from the perspective of Learning everything I can from this Human being in terms of their ability to Connect with an audience And and I really I went with that lens And it was amazing I you know I remember There were moments where I tried to hang On what was I at the time maybe I was 20 20 21 19 maybe I but I remember trying To get as close to the stage as possible Because I just wanted to see You know what does he have on the stage
Because I knew at that time I was Already public speaking and and I was Like what do I need on the stage how Many notes am I supposed to have what is You know what does Mastery look like in Terms of how many times you look back at Your notes or whatever and I just Remember getting as close to the stage As possible to try and see does he have Notes does he have a monitor what does He use and that part fascinated me as Much as any other but that's probably me Geeking out from a public speaking Perspective most people won't be Interested in that so what happened After after the event I I went I was at school and my uh you Know my kind of Ambitions I thought I Was going to be a involved in real Estate somehow because my my father was Involved in real estate so I ended up Going to to University to study real Estate no without a thing they had a Course I think I was in year two of University and CB Richard Ellis who um Are the one of the big property Companies in the world came around to All of the universities and said we're Looking for five people to go to China And work for us and I ended up winning One of those five spaces and going to China which was the adventure was Extraordinary The part where I sat in the office in
Shanghai And and sort of waited for the day to Finish I just realized oh I don't know If this is me I don't know if commercial Real estate is my thing I thought maybe It was And then I blew short long story short I Blew an interview at the end of my University career like really blew it Badly That was like my shot at a really great Job in real estate and when I blew that Interview It made me I was able to not even I Didn't even have to be brave I was like Well they took the opportunity of me Doing something here has been taken away From me so I might as well go and start My own thing or go and try coaching try And public speak more Just a quick announcement from one of Our sponsors and we'll get right back to The episode and this episode is brought To you by Heights Heights is a brain Care smart supplement that I've been Taking every morning for the last 12 Months I love it so much that I actually Became friends with the founder Dan who We actually had on season one of the Deep dive podcast we also have an Interview this season with Neuroscientist and psychiatrist Dr Tara Swart who's the chief science officer of Heights and I like the product so much
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Takeaways and so these two capsules just Two capsules Every Morning has my base Is covered and it's a lot easier to take Just two little capsules with water than It is to try and drown green sludge or Whatever else other other companies have In the market that kind of does the same Thing so anyway thank you so much Heights for sponsoring this episode and Let's get right back to the podcast you Would have graduated university around Age 21 but you said you'd been doing Public speak like what was the public Speaking on I had a couple of years Before that I think I was about 17 16 17 At the time I went to DAL Carnegie's Offices in London I remember going to One of their free events And just being fat you know so into the Book and when I heard there was like a Free event in London for Dale Carnegie I Was like I'm gonna go which I always Tell people I'm like I I was excited you Know this wasn't me at a certain point Who when I want to go and sell courses I Want to go and for me I was My I that was me I was the guy in the Gym yeah yeah it was my was I was Excited about so I was just excited to Learn And I went to one of these free uh Events and I was At the time It's not that the event was probably
Great but I had come off the back of Like seeing Tony Robbins live yeah and I Was like oh it was so sort of deflating For me and I remember going to their Offices in London And asking them for a job basically and The guy was very diplomatic uh who he Was sort of that I think it was the MD There and he said well you know we um You know we could you know have you come Here and work to become a speaker but it Would be a long long path and he used The phrase I think we would just slow You down you're a man on a mission and I Think we would slow you down which was Very very Dale Carnegie of him he knew What he was doing and I in my head I Didn't hear a rejection uh I didn't hear Someone saying you're way too young to Be involved with us and you've got Nothing to offer us right now I just Heard yeah he's right they would slow me Down and so I left and Um and continued on my path but there Was a guy in London who was doing men's Workshops And he needed help and that was useful For me because around I think I was 18 At the time he I went to him and I was Like look you I'll come and just help You set up the event I'll help you just If I can even just do a little warm-up For you or whatever I'll do whatever you Want it was you know I always imagine
I'm not making any comparison here but You know like when I read stories about The Beatles I I read like they just went Touring around these tiny venues and Would play and play and play all these Small small events And that was really what made them so Seasoned when later on they had all of This uh you know Fame For me I was really really I count Myself so lucky that at that age I found A way that was very very low stakes to Go and cut my teeth on public speaking And so there would just be you know four Or five guys sat around and at a very Young age I sort of started being given what I saw As air time yeah you know it was and Again it was probably that the people That were already working there just Wanted to break They wanted to go on lunch and they were Like if this if this young dude wants to Get up and talk for an hour that gives Us time to go and chill so that was what I started to do so the the few a few Reflections on that so that's that's so Interesting because I mean there's a lot of Um young people who are actually a lot Of people in my audience who are super Into like personal development and stuff Like that's the whole Arc of my my YouTube channel essentially and I always
Get emails from people who are teenagers Being like hey I've just read uh you Know the magic thinking big or how to Win friends and influence people or any One of the 100 different best-selling uh Personal development books and yet the I Guess for you you had that interest and You took the next step of being like let Me actually go to some of these events Let me cold email the people who are on These events and like volunteer my Services for no money to just try and Get some more experience there yeah I Like I don't think I thought of this uh At the time consciously but I've always Used the phrase Since thinking about it consciously Stuff leads to stuff I I think there is something about that Phrase that encapsulates so much of how All of us come to do something that we Never thought we would be doing or that We an opportunity we never thought we'd Have Um you know even today when you say oh Was that the kind of old pickup artist Type stuff there's a part of me that Goes yeah you know like yeah it was but The truth is At the time I I was willing to to be Scrappy I was willing to you know it was Like I don't I sometimes I think we so Over judge every next move yeah Um I remember giving I remember a friend
Of mine Um Who I once who who's a an amazing Animator and I once had an animation Project that I needed for my business And you know I said to him do you want To do this And at the time he he said something Like Um you know I I don't know if that's the Kind of work I want to do I want to you Know and I I remember at the time by the Way I'm not saying I'm right but at the Time I remember thinking You've made it the parameters so kind of Rigid for what kind of work you are Prepared to do that I worry that you're Not because doing this thing for me Might land you this thing over here that That you never would have got otherwise It might give you a level of exposure And I'm I'm maybe not right about that I Don't know I you know there might be People who have much more defined Parameters for what they're willing to Do but for me As long as it didn't genuinely Compromise My like core core values I always look to everything like it's Stuff leads to stuff I you know I do do I want to be associated with kind of Pickup artists and all of that no
But but is there an opportunity here for Me to do something is Dale Carnegie Letting me on the stage No you know is anyone with any Credibility who's saying to this 18 year Old yeah get on stage talk to our Audience no so in that situation it it Happened to be something that allowed me To To learn something an age it allow me to Get my 10 000 hours way before most People would ever get the opportunity I Wanna I wanna go back to the the journey Um so you're sort of 18 19 years old you Call email this guy who's running Workshops for men and he's like all Right cool you can be on stage for an Hour yeah or whatever like what what Kind of stuff are you talking about as An 18 19 year old well I I was probably At the time I parroting What I had read and heard from other People and filtering it through this Kind of You know dating Centric lens That to some people hearing it who Hadn't done my reading felt original or Felt like it was sort of groundbreaking But I was you know borrowing or stealing From All these sort of influences that I had Read about And And you know I I think one of the
Biggest things I talked about two two Things I talked about a lot one was the Anxiety of the approach and the other Was the deeper confidence that underpins Um us feeling like it's not that the World has crashed down if it goes wrong To say that I had figured those things Out would have been a lie But the one thing at the time the one Bit of credibility I had was that I was Doing what I was asking them to do That that getting over your fear and Actually doing the thing whether it was In public speaking or whether it was in Approaching a girl at the time I really Was living that so I felt I always felt Like well as long as I'm one step ahead Yep I can always give you something Um but I you know like I said at the Time I was I was exploring all these Worlds myself I didn't realize how many You know when I look back now I sort of Cringe at how much I thought I you know I I it's very cringe-worthy in fact but You know I all the later problems would Would come in my 20s when I realized I Hadn't figured out any of my stuff yet And there was all this processing I had To do of my own life but but the the Taking a risk part I felt like I can do someone could be 40 Years old And if they're not taking a risk that I'm taking then I I can at least help
Them take that risk if nothing else I Might not be able to help them get over Their deeper issues but if I can get Them over the ledge of this thing that They've never done that will be progress For them and it was at the time it was Just a quick little break before we get Right back to the episode and that's to Let you know that this episode is very Kindly brought to you by short form Short form is the world's best service For reading summaries of books but it's More than just book summaries what short Form does is it basically creates a sort Of study guide for tons and tons of Different non-fiction books from all Sorts of genres from self-help and Personal development to money and History and philosophy it's just got Loads of really interesting books and They summarize them firstly with a cool One-page summary but then they also have Chapter by chapter outlines of each book And in between the chapter summaries They also have kind of interactive Exercise sections where you can take the Insights from the book and actually Apply them to your life and the other Cool thing about short form is that if For example an author says something That is a little bit Dodge or that has Been debunked or kind of disagreed with With another author then the short form Team will write a note saying that hey
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Completely free five-day trial where you Can try it out and see if you like it And it will also give you 20 off the Annual premium subscription which is the Thing that I personally subscribe to so Thank you so much short form for Sponsoring this episode when I first Started teaching my part-time YouTuber Academy just sort of teaching people how To do YouTube I was so surprised that Like 95 of our students are older than I Am and we're having issues with Confidence and putting themselves out There on camera and initially I had so Much impossible I'm like what the hell Could I possibly hope to teach a 45 year Old executive at McKinsey or something Like that I was like oh this person Struggles to put themselves now in front Of a camera I've been doing this for Years okay I can teach something yeah And it felt very much this this weird Weird sense of damn like real adults Actually struggle with these things as Well yeah I don't know if you had that Kind of experience at all no I You know what's funny is I now look at Both of our arguments there and I'm like Yeah but maybe there are Like maybe they've just always been Afraid but also the older you get the More you develop new fears the more you Have sort of things to lose that you Didn't have when to lose when you were
21 or I I had to go in in a helicopter Recently which I say not as any kind of A humbleback I didn't want to go I Didn't I I don't I I was with a group of People that really wanted to have this Experience and I'm not I had a bad experience in a plane That a couple of years back that gave me A sort of a bit of a fear of flying I I Can't it's not a fear I'm able to Indulge because I have to go I have to Fly all the time but I do not enjoy Flying the way I used to Um it makes me anxious like take off and Landing and turbulence and all of that And uh and I had to you know that was With a group of friends who really Wanted to do this helicopter experience And I I said yes because I was like I Don't want to be the guy that stops Everyone from doing something fun on a Trip that I'm part of I'm just going to Go along with it But I can tell you now that 21 year old Me wouldn't have had a problem with that At all It would have been fine and would have Been like yeah let's do that that sounds Great I'm now 35 and Um it's not such a enjoyable experience For me or I get anxiety that I didn't Have before I I that makes me just you know when
You're dealing with older people you What you don't know is what they've Encountered in their lives when I was You know 25 and working with a woman who Was 50. And getting into dating again after a 20-year marriage had fallen apart My saying oh you just have to get over Your fear by doing this and this and This it's I may be right But I don't understand what she's been Through I don't understand what it's Like to have been out of the dating game For 20 years And everything changed in that time And that you know she's starting it Truly starting again at an an age that She can't relate to dating at yeah Because the last time she was dating she Was 30. and you know so So you kind of you can know something But not know you you know you may have Been in the same I'm guessing that there May have been situations where you might Have been working with someone who is Afraid to get on camera But if there are 45 year old who's led a Whole life And developed many deep Connections in Their life and they've had a an image That's been cultivated over 25 years of Adult life
And a career where everyone sees them in A certain way is much heart that fear of Like Making a video I'm putting out there in The public is a very different thing for Someone like that than it is for a 25 Year old who's Identity is five years old In terms of their Adult Career Identity Or seven if you count University So you know I I feel like those are some Of the things that you don't consider at A certain age even when you're saying The right things like I did it I Remember when I first moved to Beverly Hills uh not the Beverly Hills to La I I Remember Having This thought that would be fun to film a Video in Beverly Hills I thought it was So cool I was like I just got to La I'm Gonna do a video in front of the Beverly Hills Sign and I went over there and I Shot this video and there was this guy Who was watching me the whole time And it made me a bit self-conscious when I was filming the video it's always that Funny thing isn't it you could make a Video for hundreds of thousands or Millions of people and yet someone's Actually watching you film it and you're Like a person That guy came up to me at the end of This video and the video by the way was
The three tips to like overcoming Heartbreak something like that This guy came up to me at the end of the Video and he goes You've never been heartbroken have you And at the time I was not I was like Annoyed you know when someone feels like Someone's caught you out deep down there Like needling at something and I was Like how dare he you know I'm here Making my video and doing he doesn't Know me and the truth was he sensed he Knew something He knew from the way I was talking That I had not truly had my heart broken He could sense that And so that was where that comment came From for him and even though I was like Had this righteous indignation He was right Now I've since corrected that I I have Uh corrected that hole in my resume But at the time Uh I hadn't not really I'd experienced What I thought was heartbreak But There's heartbreaking there's heartbreak And anyone who's been truly heartbroken Knows the difference And knows that making a video That's called the three tips to getting Over heartbreak is sort of absurd and It's a in its very Premise right because going when you're
In heartbreak you're not going to get Out of it with three tips you are a Walking Zombie who it appears numb on the Outside but on the inside feels like You're dying And unless you've been through it you Don't know how to truly acknowledge that For somebody else and I think that for Young content creators And I count myself still among them We all have to be really careful And the younger you are the more careful You have to be That you never fall into the Trap of of Trying to know it all or pretending that You know it all and making that one of Your masks I did it I fell into that Trap when I was starting out I really Tried to appear like there was no Question I couldn't answer And it and it was a weakness because It's not true smarter wiser people can Smell it yeah and you'll lose Opportunities because of it And I said to someone I care about and Love very much who's who's kind of go-to Reflexive phrases yeah I know You know when you're talking to someone And halfway through the sentence before You've even finished they go yeah I know It's the worst phrase in the world it's Very annoying and when you get someone Like that you sort of quite quickly
Decide that teaching them anything isn't Fun It's not enjoyable And that it doesn't feel good to have a Conversation because they don't they Don't make you know they they already Know okay you already know I won't say It And so you really stop learning when you When you use that phrase I wasn't someone who said yeah I know But I certainly acted in my work like I Knew Much more than I did and I've since then Really Really enjoyed being someone who doesn't Know So where You're a young Matthew you're like 19 Doing these workshops where you're kind Of helping people overcome approach Anxiety and things like that What happens next in the sort of public Speaking Arc I I started doing small Events for women Um because I I had this thought that Well It'd be nice to do something out of the Men's area I was looking for a change And I was I think I was just I was just Leaving University And in that That's that crossroads of am I now gonna
Go and Work for a company or am I going to do My own thing And I started Uh I started just putting I put together A little website and was like well maybe We'll just do some small stuff for women I actually you know what I did in the Beginning I just Said if you email me a question I'll Answer it like if you write in I had a Website and it was it was for women and I just said if you email me a question I'll I'll answer it and that for me was Like research like what what problems Are people having in this area Okay do I know anything that can help How How did you go straight for like from I'm helping men do approach anxiety too I'm not going to give dating advice to Women that that seems like a Chasm that I wouldn't think of Well I originally I thought Here's what it was I read a book A very well-known book for women at the Time which one it was called the rules Oh yeah I read that a couple years ago It's super interesting very interesting And I you know I'm I don't At the time there was some there was Something in there that I read and I Went
That's not true for me You know there was a there was a Particular sentence or a chapter I can't Remember but it basically said if a guy Isn't coming over to you Then he's he's not interested They'll forgive me if I've misphrased That but I it got that was the kind of Tone of it and I I remember thinking Everything about my life has said that The opposite is true Yeah the more Interested I am yeah the less likely Yeah I remember I remember reading that Kind of stuff and thinking oh this is I Just specifically wow this is you know I Literally have spent my life doing the Opposite of that And that kind of sparked something in me Because I thought I wonder how many women Are only ever meeting the loudest guy in The room yeah the one with them with the Confidence to approach them whereas the Other 90 of dudes are just like a game Of written off either as not interested Or as Um Cowards yeah You know you if you don't and I I would Hear women say stuff like that when you Know if you don't if you don't have the Kind of stones to approach me yeah then I don't want to know you I don't know if I yeah I want you anyway and I felt very
Rejected by that because I was like but I'm like a good human being you know I I Would be great for for someone in a Relationship I have a lot to give I you Know And the idea that I would be measured Simply on that moment that I decided not To go and interrupt someone's Conversation and sort of say hey Um based on nothing at all really yeah Other than the fact that I think you're Pretty I'd like to get to know you which Is a problem for men From the outset is you don't want to be Superficial You want to form a connection that says Hey I'm not just some creep I'm not just Objectifying people I actually want to Get to know you but the very reason You've gone over to someone in the first Place is because you find them Attractive that's a hard thing to yeah It's a big sort of cognitive dissonance There where you sort of yeah you you Know why have you come over to me yeah Because I've felt like what you did in The last year at work was really Impressive and you don't know that so That's for for the most part is what you Have to go on is someone's at best you Could say someone's energy if you really Wanted to make it about something that Didn't feel as superficial as looks Something about your style exactly your
Aura yeah but but I um I started to think well There's actually a lot of really amazing Guys out there Who aren't in the habit of racing up to Every Woman they're attracted to how do You get women Meeting those guys because If you could just solve that problem you Actually are gonna you're gonna be Responsible for a hell of a lot of Relationships And this was Pre-dating apps so dating apps Solved some of that problem because it Gave people an opportunity to approach Whoever they liked from the safety of a Screen which we know has its problems Too because you could do now all sorts Of things from the safety of being Behind the screen But I Before dating apps I I figured well if I Can get women to be able to approach a Guy That they wouldn't normally meet Because he's kind of hanging back and Just You know doing his thing and he's not The kind of guy that's running up to Everyone all the time That will have been to some effect and So I I started talking about this idea Of the handkerchief and I kind of became Known for the videos of you talking
About handkerchief and that was one of The handkerchief for people who are a Metaphor that that I started speaking About very very early on where I it was My way of telling saying to women You don't have to tell yourself this Story that if you approach someone You're somehow going against your Nature or what's or the way things are Supposed to be if that's even true but a Lot of women have been conditioned to Believe that the guy is supposed to make The move and I would say well if you Think that's old-fashioned you don't Know what old-fashioned really is A hundred years ago a woman might walk Past a guy find him attractive and Inadvertently drop her handkerchief in Front of him he would see it pick it up And think this is an extraordinary Opportunity to be a man and he'd take it Over to and he'd say Madam you dropped This and and she would say did I and They would now have a conversation he May have felt he was being the proactive One by ah I'm gonna pick up this Handkerchief and walk it back over to Her what a great opportunity to make a Move But she had initiated that move she was The one who made the move she just made Him feel like he was the one making the Move and that there's some there seemed To be something very interesting in that
To me the okay regardless of whether you Think women can or can't make the move Of course they can But it almost what I was getting at is It doesn't matter What you believe If I can give you a way to be proactive That kind of feels like it's a bit under The radar then I'm going to get even People who feel like it's not my job to Make the move I'm even gonna get them Being proactive in ways they haven't Before so I started translating the idea Of the handkerchief into practical Things that women could do and it was The results were really stunning because Women suddenly felt like They had choice That they never had before they were Able to get dates And exchange numbers with people and Create activity in their love life And they hadn't been doing that for some For some people for years They had never had much opportunity in Their love lives and all of a sudden not Only were they being proactive and Creating opportunity but they were doing It with people they were attracted to They would be they were choosing instead Of being chosen which was very cool so What are the what are the modern day Handkerchiefs just on that on that topic I so there was a a book that talked
About the The idea that likability Was affected by our ability to do Someone a favor Um now what the study showed was not the Obvious that if we do someone a favor They'll like us more is that if we do Someone a favor we like them more As long as the favors not onerous it Can't be something difficult but if We're able to do a small act a small Favor for somebody we actually like them More And I started looking at that in the Context of the handkerchief and I Thought that sort of feels like it Applies there especially it's almost Feels more potent in the direction of Man to woman because a lot of guys have This sort of you know I want to be Needed I want to feel like I'm able to Do something for a woman I want to feel Necessary which is a big problem right Now in dating because men are feeling Less and less necessary uh and you know Everyone's trying to figure out their Place right now in the world which is I Find really fascinating uh the the kind Of rules are being Rewritten but What I saw is with the handkerchief is Oh a guy Has an opportunity to kind of perform a Small favor which is giving the Handkerchief back so then I said well
What's an equivalent of of them there's All sorts of little ways you can ask for A favor you could say excuse me would You just watch my jacket for a second While I use the restroom which could be Done In a coffee shop in the daytime I just need to use the restroom when you Watch my jacket for a second Um or you know I always like the start Of the phrase being I could you know Could I get your help with something or I could really use your help with Something could you watch my jacket for A second while I go to the bathroom do You know anywhere good around here for X What did you order that looks really Good I you know it These are all very small things but they Give someone the opportunity to do a Small Act of service for us what I also Like about it is it breaks the ice in a Way that doesn't feel like breaking the Ice so when you come back from the Bathroom and you say thanks so much for For watching my jacket If you then say how's your day going Anyway Um or you know it looks like that but That book looks really interesting or Whatever You feel like you're already starting at 30 mile an hour Versus if you were just there and you
Turned to someone and went how's your Day going yeah that's a bit weird now You can do it but It's a lot of people feel like they need That like 30 miles an hour to get going So that became my version for people of Dropping the handkerchief is ask a very Small and easy favor of someone And then allow that to be the bridge to A natural conversation nice Yeah that I guess is fairly us somewhat Similar to the whole uh indirect openers That guys will often use around like hey You know can you tell me where the Nearest coffee shop is or something like That I'm new here it's just a way of Prompting a conversation in a way that's Not something like hi I thought you were Pretty and I wanted to talk to you 100 Takes a large amount of almost too much Confidence Yes and you know there's how you they Can make someone else feel awkward and There's all sorts of things I I think For anyone else for anyone out there man Or woman one of the things if if this is The kind of content you're interested in That I have found most helpful in my Life Is something I call two hit Theory which Is the idea that How when you go out into any environment You have to be someone who's easy to Talk to you focusing on approachability
Is as important as focusing on how to Approach And What a lot of us do is we go into an Environment we wait until we see someone That we're attracted to And then we obsess over what the hell we Would say if we tried to talk to that Person and now we spend the whole Time that we're there becoming more and More nervous as the stakes get higher And higher and we start to imagine how Wonderful this person is that we think Is attractive and how lucky the person Is that gets them and all the thing the Qualities about them that we wouldn't Admire if we got to know them they Become something they become this Projection that is so removed From what we actually know about them Right now which is we just saw an Attractive person that's it Two hit theory is when you go into a Room The first hit as it were is Small interactions with people It might literally be like that looks Really good Because someone ordered a plate of food And you're like that looks great that's A that's a hit that's an interaction It might be Um walking up to the bar or the counter And someone's next to you and you're
Like hey how's it going Like a moment you don't remove the Intention there's no intention doesn't Need to go anywhere it doesn't need to Be a conversation nothing just a moment And you do that with more people than You normally would you have these little Hits Now what to me is really really powerful About this is such an understated thing But what's really powerful about it is Most people when they go to any Environment they're either alone or They're with one or two friends Outside of those one or two friends Who's the person they're most likely To talk to at some point during the Evening at some point during that event They're going to talk to the the most Approachable person they're going to Talk to the person they've already had Some small interaction with that became A kind of green light for a natural or Organic Exchange If you've had the natural or organic Exchange with someone it's weird to say But you're their third best friend in The room yeah And if you go around being the third Best friend of everybody who came with Two people Just because you are a little bit more Approachable than everybody else then It's you're gonna find that a some
Interactions just gravitate back to you An hour later or two hours later B even if you're the one who initiates You already have that initial Interaction to go by yeah And the fact that that initial Interaction didn't come with you Like there's always something about Someone coming over to you and talking To you for the first time and then sort Of standing there and facing you as They're talking to you and you're almost Unable to process whether you find them Attractive or whether you uh want are Interested in what they have to say Because you're so busy worrying about Are they ever going to leave yeah So when someone does this to hit theory That that first thing that first Interaction you have with people Helps them also they've already Recognized that you're not the kind of Person that needs them yep You left the first time So now when you speak to someone it the Stakes feel much lower for something Like safety as well like you don't feel As if yeah they're just not going to Leave they're just going oh God it's Like getting on you know what it's like You know when you get on a plane and the Person next to you Starts talking to you Now maybe you're in a sociable mood and
That's awesome Or maybe Like me you sort of have a whole bunch Of things that you're kind of excited to Do on that plane one of them being Nothing yeah And there's a part of you and it's not The best part of you but there's a part Of you that instantly goes oh no am I Next to a talker is this now gonna be my Flight When someone says something For 30 seconds And then says well it's nice to meet you And then goes back to their book you go Oh yeah okay and then it's almost like You wouldn't mind if you ended up Talking to them more because you go oh This person's chill they've got their Own thing going on that's I I liken it To that and too often when we're in the Mode of I want to get something We forget to communicate to other people That we don't actually need them Just a quick note from one of our Sponsors and we'll get right back to the Episode and this episode is very kindly Brought to you by skillshare if you Haven't heard by now skillshare is one Of the world's leading platforms for Online classes for online education They've got thousands and thousands of Classes on all sorts of topics from Business entrepreneurship lifestyle
Design cooking interior design loads of Stuff and very excitingly I have Actually been teaching on skillshare Since 2019 and I've got 13 classes on Skillshare yes 13 classes and you can Access all of them completely free of Charge by going to skillshare.com Forward slash Deep dive and that link Will give you a free one month trial to Skillshare during which you can watch Any and all of my classes now if for Example you happen to be a student or You're just interested in lifelong Learning then I've got two classes on Skillshare that I've taught that you Might be interested in the first one is My how to study for exams evidence-based Tips study class and that basically Compiles every single thing that I've Ever learned and that the research shows On what are the most evidence-based and Effective ways of studying for your Exams and I also have a class on Skillshare around how to use Anki which Is the world's most popular flashcard App which you can use for studying for Exams but also for learning languages For learning music theory things like That and loads of people have taken that Class and said that that class was so Good that they would have literally paid Hundreds of dollars for it but you get It completely for free on skillshare by Going to skillshare.com forward slash
Deep dive after your trial is over you Can choose to continue the subscription If you like and you can access the Thousands of classes skillshare house From other teachers including people That I know people I'm friends with like Thomas Frank and Nathaniel Drew but yeah The main reason to check out skillshare Of course is that you want to check out My classes if you want to learn about Productivity and video editing and Youtubing and even cooking so head over To skillshare.com forward slash Deep Dive and thank you so much skillshare For sponsoring this episode yeah this is Something that um Mark Manson's book Models which I'm sure you've read uh Talks about a lot it hasn't oh you Haven't is this his new one uh no this Is his really old one this is from like 2011 back when he was a pickup kind of Guy so this was before the satellite This was before the satellite before he Became like a general president no I Never read it oh it's by far the best Book I've ever read in the pickup genre And it's really all about this idea of Embracing your own vulnerability and Being non-needy and it's it was sort of When I came across that sort of sort of Like the end to a lot of the other BS That was out there in the sort of pickup Genre and then this book was really About genuinely men's personal
Development and it's okay to go up to People it's okay to show vulnerability Emotional intelligence it was just like Great great on all fronts Um but his like a big part of his his Thesis was that look you know the thing You want to sub communicate is Non-neediness that you don't need this Person and therefore become the sort of Guy who has your own stuff going on and Therefore you genuinely don't need this Person and so when you're having a Conversation with someone there's no Strings attached to that conversation You're not like uh your your self-worth Is not dependent on the way that they Interact with you yeah and his his Theory in the book which I think is Broadly true and I'd love to get your Take on this is that people can tell Over people have a very fine YouTube Radar for like neediness and when Someone seems a little bit like too Approval seeking or something like that Um and I I suspect that's a big part of You know when generally women describe Generally men as creeps it's like There's something about the interaction That gives them that kind of that kind Of message yeah I think that's Absolutely true I I talk about the Um There being a kind of a formula and I Don't mean this crudely I I just mean
There are certain components to deep and Lasting attraction You have chemistry Um Perceived value Perceived challenge And connection The reason I like this model is because When you look at this you can usually See you can sort of self-diagnose Where something may be going wrong Chemistry is interesting because there's Certain there's a certain intangible There and an unknown there and not we Certainly can't control all of it but we Can control some of it you know with the Way the way that we look how well we Take care of ourselves the way we move Importantly is a big factor in chemistry Which is why you can sometimes see Someone in photos and think they're Really attractive and then you meet them In real life and you kind of go Oh weird I don't feel the same way it's also why You can get back from a date and and say Oh my God I just had this amazing date With this incredibly hot person and if You show pictures of that person to your Friends they're like okay yeah I guess you know because you you were There yeah you were there you saw how They move how they smile how they Gesture how they their micro Expressions So there's certainly things we can do to
Affect chemistry and obviously you can Create tension too which is a big factor In chemistry in chemistry then there's Perceived value and perceived value is All these things that that we are and do That bring value to the table it might Be our personality uh it might be the Things that we're good at in life it Might be our life the life that we've Built Um can sometimes be our friends and Family you know sometimes you meet Someone's friends and family and you go Whoa this is what a life this is to come Into they have an amazing group of People around them so much love so much So there's a lot of ways for perceived Value to to manifest itself then there's Perceived challenge And the interesting thing about Perceived value is it goes down Regardless of how many things are in That category If there's no perceived Challenge And perceived challenge is not uh The kind of I don't know a typical way of thinking About it I guess would be like hard to Get It's not that's a cheap way to create Challenge because the problem with hard To get is you can't keep it up forever The moment you oh God yeah If someone's if your attraction was
Built around the getting then you can't Sustain it But if The the real beautiful sustainable way To create challenge is for there to be Uh for your value to have a price Okay what do you mean That your value doesn't come for free Your value is something that has to be Earned By the someone showing up in the way You're prepared to show up by someone Being prepared to make the kind of Sacrifices you're prepared to make for Someone Um by someone giving to you on a level That you're willing to give respecting You on a level that that you respect Them Um And also not giving someone too much Credit too quickly That's a a big problem when we come from A needy place when we come from a place Of insecurity we start giving people Credit they don't deserve yet I just met them I just had the most Amazing date with the most amazing Person oh my God they're incredible Based on what Based on how on what basis what Information could you have possibly got On one date That enables you to say this
You You have been seduced by a kind of charm Charisma maybe the fact that you did Something really fun on the day the fact That they made you laugh a lot the fact That they told stories about their past That made them relatable or sympathetic Or seem really authentic all of that is Great I'm not I'm not saying be Inherently suspicious I'm saying You don't know yeah You don't know so on what basis are you Giving them all of this value already Based on projection And based on insecurity this immediate Putting them on a pedestal and putting Yourself down here and when someone Smells that They don't see an equal anymore And that's that's what I mean when I say Challenge I don't mean artificially Constructing Games or Hoops for people to jump Through I mean that the the criteria you have For someone has to be real yeah it has To be real like It's you and I met today for the first Time Really enjoying our conversation hope You are too absolutely you know but we Don't know each other yet as friends you Don't know if I'd be reliable if you Needed something you don't know if I
Would show up to support you if Something went wrong in your life you Don't know you don't know any of that So You know it would be dangerous to go Away and make a an assessment on how Great of a friend I would be yep based On this exchange it what what you would Hope in an organic situation is that you And I go This was really really fun we got on Really well this was a great Conversation I would like to get to know This guy better that would be like it'd Be really cool if we could hang out Outside of the podcast But it's not I have to be friends with With Ali you know like we I have to Because he's a he's an amazing guy you Know like yeah that's that now that's Projection that's dangerous because I'm Basing that on the fact that you're Clearly outwardly a very impressive Human and what you've achieved what You've done is very impressive and you Seem to have had a really amazing kind Of impact on a lot of people and those Are all amazing things those are amazing Things in their own right It's not about devaluing those But I have no idea what your value would be As a friend Until we try being friends
And the mistake people make in dating Commonly Is they look at someone's Stats How Charming were they how charismatic Were they how successful are they Um you know where are they in their life What kind of person do they seem to be But none of that exists in relation to To you That's all just you admiring What this person has or is But none of it says this person is going To be a great boyfriend or a great Girlfriend none of it says they're going To be loyal none of it says they're Going to be reliable none of it says They're going to be a great teammate all It says is this person seems on these Metrics To be attractive and in any relationship You have to go through for for in terms Of importance you have to go through Four stages One is admiration that's just where I Can see someone and admire them from Either up close or far wow this person's Pretty impressive and attractive not Very important in the stages not Important yeah necessary but not Important yep Then there's uh a connection Or chemistry you both you need you know That's the next stage of do we feel
Connected to each other and is there a Kind of chemistry all right now it's Slightly more important because now it Becomes Mutual now it's not just me Admiring you it's oh there's something Between us yeah Not important Because necessary yeah but not important How many people have ruined their lives Over the fact that they had chemistry With someone even when that person was a Terrible partner a terrible person to Base their their decisions on The next stage is uh commitment Okay I admire you we have mutual Chemistry and connection and we're both Actually saying yes to each other I deal With people every day where they have This stage But that person isn't saying yes They're saying yeah I'd like to see you This Friday At 11 o'clock But they're not saying yes to an actual Relationship So you need commitment to go to the next Stage of importance but many people are Treating something like it has total Importance even though they're only at The second stage so you need a yes you Need commitment Now you would say if you've got that That's the most important thing you can Have you've got someone you admire
You've got someone you have a connection With in chemistry and you've got someone Who is committed It would seem like that was everything But that kind of idea is it Virgil would Love conquers all love does not conquer All Two people saying yes to each other Doesn't Make for a long-term relationship you Also have to have the fourth stage of Importance which is compatibility yeah Are you actually compatible because if You're not You can say yes I want to be with you Yes I'm committed But that lack of compatibility will show Up in ways that will make both of you Miserable well what do you mean by Compatibility it could be anything it Could be my idea of a good time is Staying home watching movies and yours Is constantly traveling around the world It could be your idea of a good time is Going out and drinking and doing drugs And I don't want to live that life and We've both said yes to each other But The you know our idea of what is a good Life is completely different or our idea Of loyalty is completely different your Idea of loyalty is that I don't have sex With anyone my idea of loyalty is that You don't emotionally cheat on me
In the texts you send yep you know that We've both said yes to each other we Have admiration connection commitment And yet I am miserable because of what Your definition of loyalty is So compatibility is do we both want to Live the same kind of life and and do Our values line up and do we both have The same idea two people can say I value Kindness but we can have very different Standards For what kindness actually means So Without that stage so many things go Wrong my What what I mean to say with all of this Is that We lose our value in dating When we stop paying attention To the appropriate level of importance At different stages If you Take stage two I found someone I have a connection with As the be-all Endor and the thing that You Martyr yourself in service of You lose all your value You you are now the person who spends a Lifetime uh accepting really poor Treatment from someone because every Time you see them it's amazing you don't Understand when we're together it's so Good it's so incredible they're so there
For me that the sex is amazing the Chemistry is amazing we have such Amazing conversations What's the problem I haven't heard from Them in two weeks But Matt you don't understand the Connection is incredible you don't know Like this this is really important to me Why Why because you you have miscalculated The value of stage two and when you do That you lose your value because someone Realizes your value what you're willing To give has no price It's free it does not need to be earned So your perceived challenge Drops and when you're perceived when There's no challenge to you when someone Realizes your value has no price Then you lose respect and you and you End up losing real value as a result Which is crazy but I know it all sounds Kind of heady but it You know it really this stuff is real Whether you whether when someone There'll be people listening to this uh Guarantee there'll be someone in the Comments Who says oh does it all need to be so Difficult can't you just be yourself and The answer is no Because you may not be doing the things That make you confident or that show Your real value you shouldn't be uh
Someone you're not But people Define being themselves as Holding on to all of their The things that make them make bad Decisions or that make them uh their Trauma or the things that they haven't Healed or the things that make them Chase after someone who will ruin their Life that's not being yourself that's That's not healing that's not doing the Things that are necessary for you to Attract a much more quality version of Connection and love in your life so the Reason that I've geeked out on all of This stuff is because The consequences of ignoring what I'm Saying Are a life of suffering and I have Watched it over and over again I have Watched women get to their 40s where They just gave up 10 years of their life To a guy that was never giving them what They wanted was never on the same path As them but they ignored it because they Valued the connection so much Well they valued the chemistry so much Or both and now their window for having Children of Their Own Has has gone And the grief that comes after that is Profound I I actually see that pain so when Someone in the comment says oh you don't Need to do all of this you don't need to
Think about all of this it's the same as Someone saying No one needs therapy No one needs to work on themselves just Do you Okay Okay to then do that I'm not that guy I'm not someone who's saying all of this To other people and they're not doing it For myself you know I'm I'm on a path Myself I have a therapist I have coaches I have people that help me I I and I Will continue to my whole life because Why my life gets better when I get Better Love it that's a great chemistry Connection perceived value perceived Challenge Um Is there a difference in Waiting or Anything and I get okay so I guess this Is a broader question Is there much difference between dating Advice for men and dating is about Advice for women because I feel like the More Abstracted you get in dating advice the More it feels like it applies to both Sexes genders whatever term we want to Use for that but also then there are The the more uh non-politically correct You go down the different genres of Men's dating advice and women's dating Advice the more polarizing it seems it's
Like okay this is for men and this is For women yeah so what like how do you Straddle that Somewhat dodgy ground of like yeah this Works for women this works for Um I think that you have to just be Honest From uh an empirical perspective About what men seem to struggle with and What women seem to struggle with okay You know what I mean there's a the Empirical perspective the empirical Perspective is is just really us a fancy Way of saying what seems true based on What you actually experienced Um And then acting on solving the real Problem the real thing that you're Seeing over and over again I think that it's empirically true for a Lot of guys More than it's true for a lot of women That men struggle to be vulnerable now Women struggle to be vulnerable too There's no doubt about that everyone Does But When it comes to uh let's say being Strong And appearing strong an appearing Masculine appearing Alpha men struggle To be vulnerable Because a lot of men maybe most have Learned that a huge part of their value
Is tied up in how strong Of a man they are How their ability to dominate their Ability to be the alpha of the pack These are very this is very male Conditioned Language I'm not an anthropologist so I Have no I don't need to talk about Whether it's biologically programmed or Where it comes from whether it's Genuinely a part of us and always will Be or whether it's just societally Conditioned I don't need to be part of That argument I just need to deal with Men the way they actually are today yeah And a huge number of men are terrified That if they display any weakness A woman is going to run the other way And she's going to go and date the alpha Of the pack Um So you can in that you can just say Okay Regardless of whether we're the getting Into the details of how when different Men and women are biologically I think You can just say men struggle with this How do we get men to be Vulnerable But in a way that allows them to still Feel attractive Or how do they search for someone how do They how do men start instead of putting Stock in how many women find them Attractive which may no longer be the
Best measure of Your happiness is figuring out how to be Attractive to the maximum number of Women Instead maybe it's helping men redefine Oh happiness isn't being attractive to The maximum number of women attractive Is finding a woman Or a happiness rather is finding a woman That really accepts you With for everything that you struggle With as well as everywhere that you're Naturally strong And that real happiness is going to be Finding someone who can hold both parts Of you they they both celebrate where You're amazing and strong and naturally Gifted and they also are able to Accept and truly see the parts of you That are afraid the parts of you that Have trauma the parts of you that don't Feel like you match up To other men or other situations or Whatever That to me and by the way doesn't then Define You by that you know doesn't I I Always remember a relationship where I Said something very vulnerable I I Talked about something that had made me Insecure that night And it really felt like it was thrown Back in my face like it didn't go well You know I'm a huge brene brown fan but In that night I hated brene Brown I was
Like I was like I should never have said this Yeah I just I feel like I just lost all Attraction in that moment and when You're afraid like that you get mad Because you're like I'm never doing that Again But that would have been to learn the Wrong lesson Because the right lesson would be oh I Need to find someone that is is capable Of Of actually seeing this part of me and Understanding it and also In seeing it and understanding it not Then labeling me as that Not saying well now that you've said That I'm just going to stay with you and I'm still going to love you but I'm Gonna see you as insecure yeah no I just Someone who says oh I see that part of You Still a you're still a man to me you're Still like this I just understand that Sometimes you feel like this that is That should be happiness To men but A lot of men have been conditioned to Believe that happiness is being Attractive to the maximum number of Women And so what do men do what would I argue Is a very male problem Is men striving their whole lives to get
As much power and status and success and Money as possible In order to achieve Being attractive to the maximum number Of women And therefore being happy yep and so you Then see how you can spend a lifetime Getting it backwards Without the right advice but if I went To a room full of women I don't think anyone Could argue That it would seem a bit odd if I went Into a room full of women and said We need to talk about the fact that you Guys worked your whole lives to acquire Money and power and Status so that men Will like you That would seem everyone would go I Think he walked into the wrong room yeah You know so that Because empirically We know that that would be a strange Message in that room but in a room full Of men it would be a very very necessary Message and it would do a lot for men's Happiness if they were able to truly Absorb that message So what is what are some things that Women struggle with Well If we were to stay on subject for that Yeah a lot of women struggle with The the the opposite seeming to be true
That the more I achieve and the more Status I get and the more money I Acquire and the more I have it all Together The more it seems I'm turning People off the more it seems I'm Pushing people away or that people are Intimidated by me And and I think that there is a very Interesting thing going on right now Where Everyone is everyone is trying to find Their feet again there's like a Recalibration happening because you Still have You have a generation of women who are Being Now told hey like you can go and go and Do what you want to do like Go make something of yourself go go hard For that promotion for that job start That company do that thing and all of That is amazing But you still have a lot of men Who have been told or brought up on the Idea that your value Is your ability to Provide your value is your ability to Look after yep I mean I my mum Loves women hmm My mom always wanted a girl she tried Three times she got three boys and then She gave up she desperately wanted a Girl
But she's old school East End you know For those of you that are not in London You you know if you think of the Cockneys that's the East End my mum's Old School East End She was brought up to believe that as a Woman a guy should look after you And so as her son she brought me up on That idea you do this for her you don't You dare let her pay You if I find out you let her pay There'll be murders That's my mum That my mum would see A girlfriend of Mine pick up a bag and be like don't let Don't worry Matthew pick up that bag Don't let her do that little thing yeah She's too stoned look at her don't get But get that bag for her that's my mum So I grew up with this idea that oh I I Need to I need to pay for everything I Need to make sure that I open the door That I pick up the bags I do this that I Do that that's my that's my value So what happens If I come face to face with someone Who says I don't need you to carry my Bags hmm Which my fiance has done routinely I Heard her laugh over there when I said That because she's we've literally had This conversation where I'm like Like she'll be picking up something that
Is legitimately heavy and I'll be like I I've you know I I can do this just like Let me do it because I'm I can be you This is an area where I could be useful Yeah And she's sort of in those moments now Look truthfully if she really wants to Pick up the bag fine That's on me to be okay with that but She also knows and is empathetic enough To understand that that's kind of a nice Moment for me to be useful Right But if I came face to face with someone Who I and and I hadn't done the work I've done And I was in that old Paradigm of well Unless they let me pay for everything And by the way that must mean that they Need to earn a lot less than me because Otherwise they don't need me to pay for Everything and all of this feels like a Bit of a farce so now I need to date Someone who earns a lot less than me so That it makes sense for me to pay Everything yeah And I need someone who is hasn't got as Much status in their work because I'm Supposed to be the one who's providing And I need so it you can see how that Version of me could come up against Someone who Is has been taught go own it do your Thing build your life become successful
Earn money build a company whatever and Those that would feel like an Incompatibility and she would say he's Just intimidated by me And I would be going I don't know what I'm needed for here Yeah and and so on the guy's side that's A miscalculation because men now need to Learn that There's there's a much more diverse Range of ways that you can provide value In the context of a uh Team than in Those very two-dimensional ways But men need to learn that and that's Hard it's hard that you're literally Asking men with that to ReDiscover what Their confidence is based on that's not An that's a tough thing to do we're Talking years of work To completely redefine what your worth Is and have it come from a deeper more Nutritional source And and then on the other side I think that and again I'm not an expert In this but I've I've seen 15 years of Coaching literally hundreds of thousands Of women in person and millions online I've watched as people kind of It's it's almost like if someone says I'm you know I don't need a guy for this And I'm I'm good here and I'm good here And I leave work and people are Intimidated by my energy and sometimes I Want to say look I'm not excusing guys
Because everything I just said about Guys is true they've got a lot of Relearning to do or learning for the First time But hey don't don't forget it's actually Not that attractive for you to have this Energy all the time Like there's there's different kinds of Energy that make A person attractive I pride myself on the fact that if you Come to one of my speeches you may just Laugh and cry in the same speech That's that's what I call Unique pairing In attraction a unique pairing is when You find two different qualities that Are both attractive But on their own can be a bit Two-dimensional But when you find them in the same Person That creates a 3d effect that is Mesmerizing So if you find someone who's really sexy But then they can be completely Goofy And make you laugh That's a unique pairing you're like whoa That's normally someone's just sexy Normally someone's just funny and I want To eat pizza with them but I don't want To go home with them Now I find someone that is super sexy And then after the fact I want to spend All day with them laughing
Well we might just have a relationship You know that's a unique pairing and I Think that a lot of people have Forgotten that they've they've become Addicted To a certain way of being that has Worked for them yeah if it's being like Hard-headed in business that's worked For them but the problem is you're what And usually it starts young right what We get validated for we keep doing if You're funny you keep being funny if You're successful you keep acquiring More success if you're If people like you for your looks then You double down on that we all have Those things that we got validated for Early on and our validations become our Mutations they become the things that we Go we we keep doubling down on and we Become less and less Diversified in our Energy our personality You can't be you can't be one great song You you have to be an album like every Everyone has to be an album some album Albums have sad songs they have happy Songs they have Up Tempo songs they have Slower songs you you gotta be able to be All of those things and everyone should Ask themselves men and women alike Am I being an album Or am I being this this one great hit And hoping that someone sticks around I Had a relationship with someone years
Ago uh in my early 20s when I was just As I was approaching my 20s and I Remember asking this person why it Months after the relationship ended I Was like why did you not want to be in It anymore And she said honestly I said Yes I guess she said it got boring She said you were so ambitious And that was really really attractive at First But then it was all you were It was like you it was all you could Talk about it was all we did was you Just talk about work and whatever it was Never anything else and it was a very Important lesson for me in my life Because I realized that one side of a Unique pairing Can actually Christopher Hitchens uh Once said that The key in relationships is not allowing Your advantages to negate themselves oh Nice and the in his case what he was Talking about is he was obviously a Formidable debater on the stage And he did it for a living but when he Was at home He said when he was in an argument with His wife The guy on stage would come out And really think about how to win this Argument and even after the fact he
Would go away and like work on his case And come back and be like all right I've Got the death blow to your argument And he realized there was no points for That in his relationship this was the Mother of his children He was not trying to win a debate on a Stage Your advantages can negate themselves It's worth everyone asking what are what Are the strengths I've been riding on And where have they become my my Greatest weaknesses What's the deal with uh masculine and Feminine energy and how does that relate To kind of your coaching thesis and Anything like that do you know what's so Funny someone asked me this the other Day and I feel like I just had a Terrible answer I don't Yeah I feel like uh people have become very Caught up with the language of things And At the risk of reiterating the the point I was just making I really do think that Well it's almost worth looking at what Would make me boring If I was just masculine all the time However you want to Define that if I was Just assertive and dominant and decisive And ambitious and whatever if you want To I I there were people I'm sure who uh
Far more educated than me on what the Traditional masculine feminine actually Means but in terms of when I think of What I associate it with if you were Just all those things all the time it Would be Terror I don't want to be Friends with a guy like that do you know What I loved most about that trip to Poland with Wim Hof was that we were a Group of guys that we were doing hard Things together like it was not easy we Were jumping off of cliffs into frozen Lakes and trekking up mountains in the Snow in our shorts but the that wasn't Even the part I enjoyed the most like The part I enjoyed the most was when we Actually sat around and as a group of Guys everyone got vulnerable And that we were doing the things that Wouldn't have been traditionally Associated with masculine energy So And even even win Who's this kind of like seems Invincible Said by the end of that trip he was like This has really helped me because I feel Like I've been able to be vulnerable in A way that I'm often not able to be and That was that felt beautiful to me so And because of that I felt so much more Connected To that group of guys I felt like oh I've I really feel like that I feel Bonded to you because I feel like I
Understand you and I feel like oh all my Fears and the things I'm worried I'm not Good enough and they're being Articulated by you guys too and I feel Less alone as a result Um So and it that in some ways it was like Doing all those hard things together Felt like it was almost a way of getting To that yeah If I so I know all the men in my life They are They have the qualities that would be Traditionally I suppose associated with Like feminine energy They have those things the best friends I have have those things in spades The When I think about would I have ever Been attracted to someone who just had Feminine energy I don't think that I would have been I think that I always needed someone who Was able to be those things But I also wanted someone who Could Be protective who could Step up and make tough decisions or show Up or be aggressive or be ambitious or Those things I wanted some in some sense Too like me and Audrey we this year did Um an event called hell on the hill Which is uh Jesse itzler
A friend of ours does an event every Year where you have to climb a hill a Hundred times is a brutal event it takes Four hours and it's very very hard to Complete you have to complete it within Four hours and and you have to go at Some Pace to complete this thing And it brings down even some of the Toughest people that I've met Me and Audrey I did it last year and Then I dragged Audrey along to it this Year and And it was so attractive it wouldn't Have mattered to me if she finished or Not but it was so attractive to me that In the hardest moments of that I saw a grit come out in her That was I was like whoa hmm that's like A there was a there was a gear in her That even though there are times where She's just very sweet and likes to for Me to protect her and take care of her And She's not she she in that moment was Like there was this grip And I was like This is inspiring to me because I'm Struggling right now And she's like gritting this thing out And she's not letting it beat her and I Saw this whole other side to her and That for me was it was amazing it was Amazing to watch and it only made me More attracted
So I when I say I think people get Caught up in language I say that because I think everyone should be looking for a Person who is able to Um Kind of hold that Duality inside of Themselves Instead of necessarily kind of being Attracted to something two-dimensional Because if you if you choose something Two-dimensional Your your kind of it's almost like You're choosing to be happy half of the Time Because you're gonna okay you're gonna Date us hyper masculine guy and that's Gonna feel fun when you want him to be a Caveman And it's really going to be depressing And miserable when you need to Talk to someone who's able to be Vulnerable and relate and connect deeply And be and reveal weakness it's going to Be utterly Miserable as a guy you can Date the person who's you know it's like The ultimate feminine energy and then Find the oh my God I'm dating a princess And I need right now this chapter of my Life calls for a teammate Not someone I just have to protect and Provide for I need it I need someone Who's climbing the hill with me right Now and instead they're asking me to
Carry them yep This is a problem so I I think whether You call it masculine feminine or Whatever I honestly sometimes the Arguments the the way that they're Phrased it bores me because it's like we Spend all of our time Debating over theoretical nonsense In the abstract like from a rational Perspective instead of just again coming Back to what's what's fun yeah fun is Dating someone who who has whatever you Want to call them both sides of the Spectrum You may lean one way or the other in Terms of what you're looking for that's Fine but that's fun being attractive is Is being able to be different parts of The spectrum at different times And showing different sides of yourself As is by the way being a to me being a Fully expressed Human being Is being able to you know there's this Part of me that doesn't normally come Out yeah and maybe that's not because it Doesn't exist maybe it's just because It's never been entertained in you maybe No one's ever encouraged it maybe people Told you you couldn't be that or you Weren't there But all of a sudden you find oh there is That part of me and you see that in all Walks of life you see women who have
Always been told they can't and then all Of a sudden someone believes in them or Someone says what are you talking about Go try this and then they try and that You know they're a beast and you go whoa That's look that was always there Sometimes there's guys that are you know You typically associate with a more Feminine energy and and that maybe they Have always done that too but then they They go try something new they go take a Boxing class and they're like does this Brings out a side of me do I want to Live there all day no But for that one hour a week this like This brings out a side of me that I Don't normally get to entertain and it Feels good and it feels good not because I'm sort of wearing a weird outfit that I'm not supposed to be wearing and That's fun no it feels good because I'm I'm actually expressing a part of me That I had convinced myself wasn't there To be expressed in the first place I hope that's not too uh That makes perfect sense Um so One thing I've often heard and I don't I Don't know to what extent this is just a Stereotype or if it's actually actually A thing Um The the Trope of women saying something Like you know I know I want to marry Mr
Wright but I find myself attracted to Mr Exciting and I get I guess it's a situation that You've dealt with I'm I'm kind of Guessing but and and I guess I wanted to Lead lead from that into the question of To what extent is attraction a choice And how much like if for example I find Myself attracted to the sort of person Who is not good for me and whatever Whatever that might look like can I Nudge my deep core into being attracted To the nice guy or the whatever or is it Like uh like what's what what's going on There what a fantastic question Um I think that to an extent we Chase what We know hmm And sometimes being attracted to Something other than what we know or has Historically have been attracted to is Um a matter of curiosity Of actually opening ourselves up to a Different kind of person to a different Kind of situation and exploring it for All it is we tend to be very we make up Our minds quite quickly about things Even labeling someone a nice person the The you know Elaine the button would say They're not that nice Do you know nice is a it's a kind of a Mask it could be as freaky as the Freakiest person you've ever met when it Comes down to it you know this this idea
Of labeling someone a nice person is um Or labeling someone the bad boy why what Because they didn't call you for three Days that makes them a bad boy You know but because they were a bit of A jerk to the to someone like they're The bad boy like what are you What is that what is that label Do you think that the bad boy all of the Time Like you think they're that person 24 Hours a day of course they're not but Based on this label you've given them They're exciting based on this label You've given this person they're boring So I think that yes of course there is a Sense of there's a kind of reflexive Attraction that we can have for people But I think that's a sometimes a lack of Imagination and a lack of curiosity if You took time to actually get to know Somebody I'm not saying you go on a date With someone where there's absolutely Zero chemistry and you just keep hitting And hoping yeah and going oh I'll see Them again because maybe one day Chemistry could come about no I I don't Believe that But I always think if if you feel like some Some kind of interesting tickle in a Direction that you haven't felt it Before and you go well this isn't Normally my type or this isn't normally
My personal this isn't I feel something Follow that Give that chance because that might Actually lead you somewhere you've never Been before and where you've never been Before might be The answer I think that we we prejudge a lot we Judge what we're supposed to have what We think our friends and family would Would validate yeah you know oh he's Really good looking well done yeah you Know and you so you kind of start Looking for that even though you might Find that an attraction with this person That doesn't look like that You feel validated by the fact that Other people are Are giving you the the social proof Around that person so you feel like you Keep and that's by the way it's how People get themselves in so much trouble They show off their their partner and Their oh my God he's so tall handsome And successful look at you good job And they're miserable at home with this Person but every time they go out and Hear Well he's he's very impressive and they Go oh I should like oh yeah I should I Should I should be grateful this Person's amazing I should continue to be Grateful you know So we have to be careful of the outside
Conditioning And we also have to be careful Dr Romani Would and people in her profession uh Psychologists would talk about the kind Of the trauma Bond That exists when we've been used to you Know a parent that neglected us or that That was very hot and cold in our lives And that becomes kind of what we know And so we get attracted to to that Behavior in others Um and we try and complete a journey That never felt finished When We Were Young And it so we also have to be very Careful of what we're labeling Attraction am I labeling this trauma and This heightened sense of anxiety that I Have around you because you're fickle And you never make me feel secure am I Labeling that excitement oh I I just What is it I've got with this person I And the more they they don't call me the More I'm like oh they there's something Special about this one why is it why why Are they getting more attractive the Less they try yeah what's going on here You know we have to really suspect those Things in ourselves And I think that an another way of Looking at attraction and again I'm not This I'm not an advocate for don't care About chemistry care about chemistry but If you start to lay look at all the Things that would make an incredible
Partner And And would make you feel secure and at Peace And if you start valuing kind of an a Real sense of deep peace Over The kind of drug-fueled high Then you are going to start looking at People a little differently because You're not going to over index for Chemistry you may still see it as Necessary it's a necessary ingredient But I don't have to live my life trying To find the greatest chemistry of my Life It's the same way You know when it comes to food or drugs There's a feeling of I'm looking for the Greatest High But the greatest High isn't the thing That will make you the happiest Sustainably So At a certain point in life I think we we Can we sometimes come to terms with what Feels like a boring conclusion yep that That feeling better and I'm still Learning this with food so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna talk like I've got all This figured out but Feeling better consistently is Just even though it means sometimes not Eating that thing or not doing that
Thing and that feels frustrating or Boring whatever it's It's I just value it more A value being uh feeling peace in my Life and feeling a sense of of Kind of a going into my day with a sense Of Happiness over feeling at An astronomical High because of a drug I Just took That I get for three hours And then it gets bad You know like it's A certain point I I almost feel like you have to say Having a nutritional Lasting sense of happiness Uh starts to win over looking for the High that cannot be sustained Um and I I don't think we we look enough For people who Where we've where we truly as my fiance Would put it chase the right things you Always reliably pay the price for Chasing the wrong things it may be it May be uh it may be fun it often is And it may work for a minute hmm But you always end up having to come you Always have to turn back at some point You always end up having to come back to Chasing the right things at some point If you want to be happy and I think that A lot of us The different stages of our life go on Those detours of chasing the wrong
Things I certainly have my time kind of And I'm I'm sure I'll fall into the Trap Again at different points in my life but You you know a lot of people in their 20s you have to chase the wrong things And you go on those detours and Um what did I see recently and Lord the New Lord of the Rings I haven't seen it Yet okay I won't ruin anything but There's just a there's a line in it Where someone says sometimes you have to Um I think he says you sometimes you Have to touch the darkness in order to Know which way the light is hmm and You know you kind of don't I don't know If anyone gets to just Know and appreciate the right things Unless they have come face to face and Have some brush-ins with the wrong Things whether it's in the form of a Tremendous heartbreak from someone who Was very charismatic and exciting Um or whether it really is with alcohol Or whatever other highs life offers and It there's always there's always going To be something that You kind of feel like you've cracked it Like no no I can make this work for me And then you realize you can't so that's That's my I try to answer to the Attraction question be willing to be Attracted to things and follow feelings That are unusual to you and maybe a Little
Scary not because there's there's red Flags but because it's a represents Something new and different and a Different type be prepared to uh make Your own mind up on how wonderful Someone is even if your friends don't Applaud how tall dark and handsome that Person is or how gorgeous that person is Um yeah have a real sense of what they Offer and and what does that look like Over a long timeline Um a couple questions about long-term Relationships so uh Honeymoon phase what's what's the deal With that yeah I you know I'm I'm I Don't want to be really careful on this Because Talking uh from a place of humility I I've not been in the kinds of long-term Relationships that other people have I'm Now engaged Um incredibly uh Happy And excited about the future Um but there will be people who You know have like Esther perel's work Is a really big influence for me because This is someone who not only has had a Long-term marriage but has written Extensively on the subject of Love and Desire yeah in relationships and I would Absolutely Point people to her book Mating in captivity which I think is an Extraordinary read and something that so Many people can learn from to paraphrase
Esther's work which is no doubt much More eloquently put in her book she says That there's love and there's desire and That love Um Well let's start with desire desire is What exists first we see someone we Become attracted to them and we desire Them and we want to close down the space Between us and Them desire exists in the Space right the mystery who are you what Are you all about could you like me Could I win you over could you know I Want to know you and then as someone Says yes You have the building of love So we start to know each other we start To get closer and closer and closer and Closer and closer and we have this Feeling of kind of Oneness between us And and all of that Fosters feelings of Love Uh as Esther would put it the Paradox Becomes how do you continue to desire That which you already have And so now as you kind of become that Unit There's less space between you they may Feel like there's no space between you And so desire becomes suffocated because Desire exists in that space And then you so then you enter that World of well what does What does desire look like in a long
Term Context we don't want to play a game in A long-term relationship where we kind Of are constantly making our partner Feel on edge yeah so that there's a Sense of danger and and yet Desire sometimes wants a sense of danger Desire sometimes wants a sense of Mystery desire wants a sense of Spontaneity of the new of the Unrecognizable now people want it to Differing extents right the honeymoon Period is going to be much more Important to some people than others Because some people are are wired and Engineered to want security So for them love is going to be much More important for them to achieve than To maintain feelings of desire for other People they're engineered in the Opposite way it's much more important For them to constantly feel like that Excitement than it is for them to feel Safety not that they don't want to feel Safe at all but it's just the balance is Different And so I think what's kind of Interesting is Firstly to to to try to Find somebody who's not engineered Completely differently than you Where they you know it's all love and no Desire or it's all desire and no love Because that's going to be miserable
But you may find that you're not Calibrated exactly the same in those two Things and that's okay But That to me is where it's really Important to listen To your partner's needs we we get so Caught up in a relationship in figuring Out what we need what's my love language What what makes me feel loved and the And the dangerous thing is that We start giving to somebody else what we Would wish they would give to us so if We like security then and we think That's the highest thing you can give Someone then we start going out of our Way to give them as much security as Possible I love you I love you I love You I love you I'll never leave you I Think you're the most amazing person on Earth and so on we give them lots and Lots of security right and we end up Giving them that thing that We crave but It doesn't mean you're wrong for craving It just means that you're you're not Necessarily listening To what that person requires because They may just be engineered a little Different so I think it's really Valuable to just think about what What are the things That make my partner that Stoke desire In my partner because in a way that to Me is what the honeymoon the honeymoon
Period is a couple of things firstly It's thinking we're perfect I think You're perfect you think I'm perfect and That just feels unbelievable and idyllic And then we realize we're not perfect And they go you go through a storming Period and the dust settles and now you Have a real relationship where we Actually see each other and say I'm Still here even though I really see you Now that's the to me that's the Transition into a real relationship Um but but beyond that it's also I think The the honeymoon period is that period Of intense desire yeah I think it's worth paying attention As you transition in your relationship To whatever the next phase is really pay Attention to what are the moments where My partner Feels desire And this can be a kind of exercise in Really paying attention like right write Them down it may sound weird to people But like right because you will forget Write down I just did this thing tonight I just wore a completely different kind Of outfit and something about that Outfit really got them going yeah I'm Not even saying it was a really sexy Outfit it might be a an outfit you Wouldn't even even imagined was sexy to Them yeah but something about that Outfit did it for them yeah you're like
Okay noted yeah Oh I just went away with my friends for A weekend And when I came back there was this Intensity okay that's interesting Um All of those little moments are they're Like a formula That can help you sustain that desire Within a relationship and I think when You stop paying attention to those Things it's another way of not paying Attention to the health of your Relationship the health of your Relationship isn't two-dimensional it's Not just How many things have I done for my Partner today But I don't understand why they're so Ungrateful I I made them this I did this I called them at the end of that and Asked them how it went I did that I did It okay that's all of that is beautiful But But value in a relationship isn't too Dimensional Sometimes value to someone is hey you Haven't seen your friends in a minute You should go see your friends Like go hang out with that you haven't Seen those two friends in a while you Should go hang out with them are you Sure what really I feel like you'd be a Oh I'll be good I'll chill I'm gonna do
Some stuff I really wanna do but you Should go do that that's another form of Value if if you crave security that Might be unnatural to you because you Might be like I don't want them to go Out with their friends and leave me for A night yeah but that might be the very Thing that makes them go whoa yeah I've Never had anyone do that before I've Never had anyone encourage me to go and Have time with people I care about They're always sort of jealously Guarding my presence and my time so There's another form of value it That to me is like real Mastery in in Relationships is going beyond what is Comfortable to give beyond what is feels Normal for you to give and really Listening to What what makes them feel a certain way Whether it's love or desire what Stokes That in that person I mean pay attention So that I can replicate that in the Future Amazing Matthew thank you so much it's Been wonderful uh we still have 13 years Of your backstory to dive into and the Business model around it and all that Kind of stuff so we're going to do a Part two sometime either when you're Back in London or potentially when I get A visa to come visit La Um thank you so much this has been Absolutely wonderful conversation uh
Where can people find out more about you Uh well Thursday thank you for having me Because that was an amazing amazing Questions I I would say to anyone who is Going through challenges in their love Life Um if you go to Yourdatingsolution.com uh and Specifically if you're a woman you will Find a a quiz there that you can take And it will suggest to you my best Solution to what you're going through so That's pretty cool Um if you want a really fun freebie and You're trying to get over someone uh go To moveonstrong.com which is going to Help anyone who's going through tough Times right now with someone in their Life or someone they're trying to move On from and I'm also Instagram at the Matthew Hussey for anyone who just wants To follow me casually there nice and I'll put links to all these things in The show notes and the video description So thank you so much for coming on Thanks man appreciate you all right so That's it for this week's episode of Deep dive thank you so much for watching Or listening all the links and resources That we mentioned in the podcast are Going to be linked down in the video Description or in the show notes Depending on where you're watching or Listening to this if you're listening to
This on a podcast platform then do Please leave us a review on the iTunes Store it really helps other people Discover the podcast or if you're Watching this in full HD or 4k on YouTube then you can leave a comment Down below and ask any questions or any Insights or any thoughts about the Episode that would be awesome and if you Enjoyed this episode you might like to Check out this episode here as well Which links in with some of the stuff That we talked about in the episode so Thanks for watching uh do hit the Subscribe button if you aren't already And I'll see you next time bye
