Patrick Bet-David, Tom Ellsworth, and Vincent Oshana are joined by economic and Harvard University professor Roland Fryer as they discuss the left’s response to Roland’s study that shows there’s no racial bias in police shootings.
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Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
I want you to watch this first so this Is him and Barry Wise and now you'll Recognize after this who we have on the Podcast today go ahead and and it was in This moment in 2016 that I Realized people lose their minds when They don't like the result and so what My paper showed you'll see tomorrow uh Like some of you uh was that yes we saw Some bias in the lowlevel uses of force Every day pushing up against cars and Things like that people sent to like That result but we didn't find any um Uh racial bias and police shootings now That was really surprising to me because I expected to see it the little known Fact is I had eight full-time Ras that It took to do this over nearly a Year when I found the surprising result I hired eight fresh ones and redid it to Make Sure they came up with the same exact Answer and I thought it was robust and I Went to go give it and my God all hell Broke loose it was 104 page dense academic economics paper With 150 page appendix Okay it was posted for 4 minutes when I Got my first email this is full of [ __ ] doesn't make any sense and I wrote Back how' you read it that Fast that's amazing you are a genius and I had colleagues take me into to the Side and
Say don't publish This you'll ruin your Career I said what are you talking about I said what's wrong with it do you Believe the first part Yes do you believe the second Part well it's the issue is they just Don't fit Together we like the first one but you Should publish the second one another Time I said let me ask this If the second part about the police Shootings this is a literal Conversation I said to them if the Second part uh showed bias do you think I would should publish it then and they Say yeah then it would make Sense and I said I guarantee you I'll Publish it we'll see what Happens so it was it was you know I Lived under under um police protection For about 30 or 40 days I had a 7 Day Old daughter at the time I remember Going and shopping for cuz you know when You have a newborn you think you have Enough diapers you don't so I I was Going to the grocery store to get Diapers with the armed guard it was Crazy it was by the way first time I saw This reaction you know to This it takes a lot of courage and Bravery and Brass to do this keep in Mind 2009 I think you're one of the top 100 Time Magazine and at the time if
You're 45 today you're you're what 30 at That time 30 years old to Beyond time I Mean that's a prestigious place to be When you were reporting this how much Did you think about this could Potentially affect my career not at all I think I was just naive man uh you call It Brave maybe I was just dumb but I I Didn't think about it at all honestly um And I have an attitude that if you tell Me I can't do something I'll show you That I can and so when people said oh You can't publish this it it it wasn't Coming from a place where they cared About me or cared about the people in The neighborhoods who I've been working For since I got to Harvard and so my Basic view was look the people in the Street know the truth and and we can't Keep lying to them right like I mean I Said the same different time in that Clip you showed I I I I say all the time Like the conversations we're having in Academia don't hit the ground in the Neighborhoods that I care the most about Right like if you go to my old Neighborhood we talked about Louisville Before the show you go to Louisville and Call someone bipac they'll punch you in Your Face right like that's not they don't They don't care about those kinds of Things and so I've always had the view That if this was your family you'd tell
Them the truth even if it was a hard Thing to say and you'd find a way to say It with empathy and with love but you Wouldn't lie to them and so the idea That you would hide results because you Are afraid of what people would say or How they would feel or how it would Affect your career it's just never been About me it's about the folks in the Neighborhoods we trying to help what What are you seeking because you know Sometimes um everybody's seeking Something else like for me you know I Have a certain life that I've lived and I'm trying to get to the bottom of a Certain Truth for myself that to to Maybe tie a certain uh uh issue in the Past conflicts that I was trying to Overcome what what answer are you trying To get to the bottom of for Yourself I'm going to put every ounce of Effort I have in trying to make sure That uh kids black or brown don't have To endure what I did to get here I'm I'm I'm trying to make the journey worth it Right so if You' come to me at age Whatever 15 it's one of the loneliest days in my Entire life I walked out of the Denton County uh Correctional Facility I just Visited my father in There and uh I remember that Conversation cuz he was bragging about How comfy the the slippers were that
They gave the people in jail I thought That's like the dumbest [ __ ] I've ever Heard I walked out of there and I looked Up and I I'll never forget it was this One of these beautiful blue Texas Guys and I've never felt more alone in My life I was 15 years old where was I Going to go there was no one else I I Didn't even know who my mother was at That time my grandmother was here in Florida and if you hadd come to to me at That time and You' said look I know uh Things seem pretty impossible Now but these experiences are going to Make You uh impervious to the BS uh when it comes to race in America And and you are going to be able to Analyze data and maybe make some Progress for for uh the next generation Of Kids I'd like to think that I would Taken on that Challenge but if you'd come to me during That day and said if you can get through This we can have chardonay at 10:30 at Harvard University to hang out we can Talk about Playdoh I would have said no thanks man Could you just get my dad out of jail And so for me it's it's you're right I Mean uh when I first got to Harvard I I Felt guilty I had to figure out I got to Do something right and and I feel like
The time I feel like the clock is Running out Out uh so I'm in a big hurry to make a Big difference were you uh in Armenian There's a phrase that I couldn't stand They would say to us you know because of Where we were at mea mea mea like oh Poor poor poor Patrick poor bed Davids And I couldn't stand that phrase when You went to Harvard did you did they Treat you like you know hey you know you Came from here and poor you let us treat You this or were you treated like Anybody else and you know the standards And expectation to perform and if yes or No did it do anything to you it's Interesting um I don't know if anyone Said poor me um but I do believe they Looked at me Different um I felt like they looked at Me like I Was um an Exception um someone had beat the Odds um someone who was Curious um the New York Times did a Profile in my life in 2006 or so and I Remember you know colleagues coming up To me and go man you sure you want all That in the newspaper because they Talked about my family you know dealing Drugs and blah blah Blah that that you know I wasn't trying To hide anything at that point um and But the the idea that I was an exception
Used to really piss me off yeah because This is not about helping a few of us Beat the odds right that's insulting This is about unfettered competition so We can change the Odds right this is about figuring out How we give people real Opportunities so they can do for Themselves right I don't need you to Pluck a few of us and Pat us on the back What we need to do is figure out how do We find hidden talent wherever it lies In across the Globe it's interesting so let's let's go Back to the study and you know you Shared a little bit about your Background for you know some folks who Don't know um the study that you did This specific study in 2016 that you Know we we played a clip for earlier When you're going through this process Of with this Study were you Yourself expecting those numbers or were You yourself like surprised as hell when You saw it and then how did that change Your perception and opinion of things no One was more surprised than me right Like I'm not proud of it but I don't Really like the police that much right Like if I I'm going to the airport after This if they pull me over I'm going to Be nervous man like I don't it's not I Think a lot of us would be um so I
Figured this was going to be the easiest Thing in the world right people were out Protesting and stuff like that after Michael Brown but you know flying to St Louis and and locking arms uh was just Not my thing I'm not saying it shouldn't Be done it's just not my thing so I Thought here's what I'll do uh to help I I will figure out empirically what's Really going on because we had only seen A few videos at that Point and uh I remember going to a Colleague of mine and saying here let's I'm going to study the police and here's An idea and what he quickly told me was You don't understand anything about the Police so how are you going to be to Going to figure out what's going on with Racing policing in America um so I Embedded myself in police department so We can talk about that if you want at Some point but uh I was extremely Surprised I was sure that there was Going to be bias in and police shootings Uh as the clip said when I got the Results back I hired new uh research Assistants to do it over again um just To make sure but once you have the Results once you have what you think is The truth given your Data there's no other choice but to go Out with it and and and try to educate People on what the data actually says And what is the data if you can just
Actually give us the data what was in The data what we found was that on lower Level uses of force so when it comes to Pushing up pushing someone up against a Car pulling a gun putting handcuffs on Them but not arresting them things like That there were large racial differences In um Police use of force so black uh uh Civilians are 50% more likely to have Force used on them in any given Interaction even when the police say They're perfectly compliant and they're Not arrested and there's no Contraband Etc they're still more than 20% uh 20% More likely than white civilians to have Force used on them but when it came to Lethal use of Force um shootings we found absolutely No racial bias in that in any way shape Or form and our data I believe is a lot Better than what has been um uh Discussed in the popular press because They're looking at kind of statistical Snapshots they're saying well the Fraction of black people who were shot By the police is 50% and they're only 133% of the population ergo it must be Discrimination sorry I don't know if They forgot statistics 101 that's not How it works right what we did was say Look here is um a two People um are in a situation with Police their behavior is the same the Other conditions on the ground are the
Same uh the police decides to shoot one And not the other is race a factor in Other words accounting for everything Else about that situation does race Predict whether or not a police officer Will pull the trigger and the answer Emphatically is no and that is the Result that uh caused uh panic in a lot Of people most people like the first Result what it do to you what it do to You I mean cuz there's there's there's Certain you're seeking the truth cuz That's what you keep saying with Barry Weiss right I'm trying to get to truth And I love what you said and you said it Again earlier today you said uh uh in One of the documentaries I watch I think It was like 26 27 minutes where it says I'm not trying to beat the odds cuz one Guy what does it feel like Rolland that You beat the odds you're like I'm not Trying to beat the odds I'm trying to Change the odds right but individually We're also going through a journey There's a difference between saying guys Look what I found you will not believe This Rapport look at what I found but What am I going through what are you Going through with the life that you Live uh at that time I um I was not Aware of what was going to Come so uh when we had the results um we Uh pursued two tracks one you obviously Publish it and we published it on a top
Economics journal great seven people Read it uh maybe six uh the second path Is we wanted a more popular version of The article so the New York Times wrote About It and uh for me Personally uh when people respond you Know people send me an email and say hey Your paper's crap or hey your paper's Great I do all I can to return every Single one of those and so for me I sat For days and uh returned thousands and Thousands of emails from regular old Americans in Kansas and in idah and in Chicago who said I don't know if I Believe this or not but thank goodness There's actually data and we can Actually have a debate about it and we Went back and forth and that that's kind Of what I do for a living right I'm a I'm a professor I I'm supposed to be Teaching not just in the classroom but If you release a paper like this this What you do so what happened to me I got A chance to teach um and if you if you Uh remember that time I didn't do any Other press this wasn't about me out There thumping my chest trying to be on Whatever News Channel saying hey look What I found we put it out there and Then I over email and other means tried To communicate directly with people About what the results were about but What I'm what I'm trying what I'm asking
Is what did it do to you so so because Uh uh life okay I grew I grew up in Iran And I see 10,000 men marching Flatulating their backs screaming mad Bad ombre called death upon America America must be an evil empire then I Watch Rocky 4 and you know Rocky and Drago are fighting Drago Drago Drago and Then rocky rocky and if you can change He can change anybody can change I'm Like man maybe we can bring Soviet Union And us and unify and realize we have a Lot in common right and I'm like wait a Minute but that's a movie that's fake This is real America must be evil then You go to German live at a refugee camp Parents get a divorce mom says because That entire family were communist their Bible was KL marks Communist Manifesto Rich people are greedy dad on the other Side an imperialist they believe poor People are lazy and then I get into the Military I get out I get into sales and Then I see the person that [ __ ] the Most work the least the guy I'm like Wait a minute what's going on and it Changed my opinion about economy about Work about politics about capitalism About who to vote for about who not to Vote for about who's manipulating about Who wanted to use me about who wanted to Keep me poor about who wanted to kind of Make sure I didn't figure out the Secrets to life that I can go out there
And figure myself out about how they use Fear to control to keep your mouth shut All of these things that I'm going Through as a kid right and I'm like my 20s and I'm like wait a minute this Doesn't make any sense what did you go Through one onone not anybody else did It change anything away from what you Witnessed in your life to go back and Say man I remember Bobby back in high School Unfortunately they sold him he Bought it he's dead now he was smarter Than me math if he knew what I knew he Could have been that sucks so it was Really the social economic it wasn't a Skin color but he was convinced it was a Skin color why do we buy did you go Through that Evolution yourself of Course yeah of course of course uh on a Couple Dimensions One Uh I was disappointed in social Scientist um I didn't realize there was So much politics in Academia until that Point I really thought that we were out There all of Us searching for the truth I mean we sit In these seminars and we beat the crap Out of each other's ideas and papers and It's all about trying to get to a place Of what's correct and what's Not and to see uh people Who uh I respected for Years lose their way because there was
There was a result they didn't like it Was very shocking to me can I ask you a Question Roland so so you do this Research you have a fact check double Checked and the truth is there why do You think that truth is such a threat to Your colleagues to the powers that be Going up the ladder of Harvard to to Just the powers that be it's such a Threat why why do you think that is yeah It's a good question I don't think the Results themselves were a threat to them I think they wanted to be on the right Side of a particular issue I I I never Thought of people as as sheep until that Moment oh wow you know it's crazy you Say That uh my entire life growing up I Don't have a four-year I don't have a Two-year I don't even have an Associates I had a 1.8 gpn in high school I was a Math guy I love calculus love math Analysis I can do math all day long had No interest for anything else trouble Teenage you know kids got divorced all This stuff so so my route was I'm going To go to the Army he went to the Air Force he was the Airman of the year in The Air Force so we're military Tom's Dad was a rocket scientist literally was A rocket scientist I'm not saying this As a so Tom went he became a professor Adjunct professor at Pepperdine at Biola He's probably had $2 billion of exits
And raising money so he goes to Silicon Valley so when Steve Jobs and Bill Gates Do that interview that 300 people Worldwide are invited to be there he's One of them that's Tom Tom's background Is that so Thomas Academia more coming From more coming from this side side but A but a part of it I remember when I Went to Harvard and for their OPM program owner President Management program you have to Do $10 million a year to be able to go There and I Qualified so I'm like Tom Tom's Like Pat Just go I'm like Tom I we're running a Company he like Pat I'm telling you go We got the company we're Tom I hired Tom To be the president of our our company At the time so I go for 3 weeks now let Me tell you what time it is when I go There I go during the debate between Hillary Clinton and Trump oh wow and I Go to this to this uh uh chow hall I Thought chow hall like you not military But this is a different Chow Chao it's a It's an Asian man that gave $100 million To Harvard called it's name after him Mr Chow okay chow hall yeah so I go to chow Hall there's 300 people from Harvard Watching this debate and I'm thinking Jood Vin SM seriously do it fast you're Doing it slow so we can't hear it so I'm At this chiao place and I'm hearing These guys and I sit in the sideline say
Nothing and it's the line because you'd Be in jail right man aren't we glad that A man like this isn't in the White House Making the decisions and having control Of whatever she says because you'd be in Jail right and Boo I'm like it has to be 50/50 now like I want to see 300 people In our room it's got to be 6040 I'm like Trump just said something The Trump people should root for him Nothing so this kept Going for the 2-hour debate not one 300 People are in chall not one person got Up the OPM program is a three-year Program I'm supposed to go every year For 3 weeks I go to my main person I Said are you guys one do you believe in Debate of course we do is this a place Where you guys entertain opposing ideas Of course we do can I ask why 100% so What do you think about Trump he says oh He's a he's a you know he's a he's a he Would be a terrible president I said why Is it 100% of you all agree that Trump's A bad person why is that I thought you Guys were about debate I said I can't Come back to the school never went back I couldn't go back the reason wasn't I Enjoy debate I want to sit down and Stephen A Smith and I were talking two Days ago let's sit down and have a great Conversation together I love it Yesterday I had a a friendly debate with
The lawyer for John Barnett who is the Lawyer for a boing whistleblower on hey He committed suicide some of the stuff Just doesn't add up and Company lost $50 Billion on valuation no he just loved Boing it was nothing bad like I don't Know I got some questions I'm curious Right let's have the banter but when I Saw that I said this is not a university They're full of [ __ ] now this is my Opinion you don't have to have that Position this is my Position why and then Co takes place and Then you saw how extreme they got and They say they're against for education And then parents asked and said hey I Know I'm spending this kind of money for My kids to come and stay in campus now You don't want them to be on campus you Want them to come from home can we get Some savings nope har degree is worth The whole price you got $60 billion in Endowment so all of these things made me Go from you're from Harvard oh my God How are you Dr Roland G frier you're From Oxford you're from this you're from That tell yeah you know what I don't Know if you guys believe in debate That's where my mind went to because What I witnessed on Harvard campus for Those 3 weeks I could be wrong what are Your thoughts yeah I think it it it Really depends on on the individual Faculty members involved it really does
What I mean you know I I I ask myself All the time who is Harvard what does That even mean right and if you were to Come to my class for example uh I teach An undergraduate class that talks about Issues like how much discrimination There is in the world whether or not um What educ policy should we have let's What what do we know empirically about The effects of slavery on current Outcomes and you have Fierce debate in That class and um and I think you'd be Proud of what the students are doing in Terms of different Viewpoint diversity If you go to other places on campus it Might be different I don't know so um It's a it's a big place and uh but it Doesn't surprise me what what you've Described Rob can you pull out what I Just texted I just literally Googled This right now cuz you know how you can Go and find out and say uh the article Came out saying what percentage of Twitter Executives and employees donate To the left or the right and then it was Like 99% I'm like what and then have you Ever seen this chart or no Rob can you Pull up that chart cuz that's public It's not hard to kind of find it's all Over Twitter and we have it and then uh Uh then I said okay let let me go a Little bit further this is different This is just let me go show to the top Harvard Corporation members donated
Heavily to Democrat ahead of the 2022 Midterms look how much of it is read you Got the pritzker family heavy duty you Got the wells there's zero red there's Zero bipartisan the only person that is Is Paul Finnegan and slightly red all Blue this is pretty much 95% is all blue So now does it mean blue is right and Red is wrong does it mean conservative Policies and living a conservative Fiscally is a bad thing does it mean Maybe if I go to Harvard I come out I Have to be a liberal if I come out of Harvard because if all these smart People at these places God forbid if I'm A conservative at a place like that I Make it ousted you know and I know you Have a very very good relationship with Claudine gay I know you guys are best Friends barbecuing hanging out you were Having breakfast with her this morning Which was great but so you hear a Claudine gay and you come out and you Report this when in 20 2016 2017 I just I Googled literally right now to see Your article about you know New York Times star Economist you know writes This article and that was in 2017 okay Whatever it was right and then they're Telling you what you're doing the next One comes out star economists at Harvard Faces sexual harassment complaints and I Went through your Tweets there was nothing about your
Tweets that was sexual they were Actually funny you're like maybe if I Didn't spend so much time studying stuff Maybe I'd be better in sex yeah I'd love To go to France I actually looked at Your tweets text not te your text I'm Like yeah I mean we all probably talk Like that every once in a while right so Then they come after you then um Claud And gay uh behind closed doors is trying To talk to Larry Bobo I don't know who It was trying to get you to lose your Tenure this is pre her being president And do you kind of sit there and say Dude am I are we not protected I am I Not are you guys now trying to Target me Did that thought at all cross your mind That this school doesn't like some of The POS and claing gay maybe the average Person on the left would say claing gay Should probably defend you right if You're really about you should be on my Side right when you were going through That and obviously I'm not telling the Whole story yeah but when you were going Through that how are you processing all That experience it was hard to process It and and what I focused on was um what I could do better really right like I Don't when anything happens in life you Have a choice you can either look in the Mirror or you can look out the window And the first thing I do is look in the Mirror and um you're right the the you
Know there's it's debatable whether or Not uh uh telling jokes is worth that Kind of penalty but uh maybe I shouldn't Have told him right and so do you really Believe that though do you really Believe that yeah the first thing I did Was I went to Executive coaching because I didn't understand right like the I Know it may be hard for some people to Think well you're a Harvard Professor You must know better we talked about how I got to be a Harvard professor and Nowhere in that Journey was Management Training nowhere in that Journey was hey You know you I I am very very casual Right so when I think we're friends We're friends and so I feel like we can Talk about anything if you have Thanksgiving at my house then I feel Like we can banter in any way we want That's just the way I rooll and so it Never dawned on me that you know for for Years I had lots and lots of students in My house for Thanksgiving and so those Students I had a different type of Bantering with than than ones that Didn't and so I treated my uh you know Workplace for people who you know I knew Well like my living room and I shouldn't Have done that um and I don't know if it Uh truly hurt someone they said it you Know a few years later they said it did And if it did my God I'm sorry because That's not you know that's not what I
Had intended so it's really not about What I believe it's about um uh what Could be and whether or not I can Actually change my behavior so that I've Done now um what was I thinking during That whole process it was it was very Very confusing And I had to figure out if I could Actually do the work I wanted to do at a University um and more importantly I had To figure out because the the the world Was treating me very differently from Monday to Tuesday during that time in my Life how I could still be on this Mission to make to have Impact um how was I going to get the Work done that I needed to get done uh If I couldn't publish here or talk about Academic papers there or have research Assistance or what have you how is I Still going to make a difference and um That's what I was truly focused On yeah I mean you sound very nice it's Not about nice man I want to be Effective yeah no I get that but to me Also from the outside do you think the Approach they took to get it public and The way it was uh uh was a form of Trying to embarrass you a little bit was It a form of making an example because That could have been handled privately You know yeah it felt personal okay it Felt personal but Again what
I maybe I'm being uh you call it nice uh But what you going to do about that Right like back in the neighborhood I Grew up in people would say man [ __ ] School man these people people Discriminating what the hell you going To do about that you got a choice you Can either get up and work your butt off And see what comes of it or you can sit Here and talk about what you can't Do and so during that time yes I could Have sat around I'm not sure anybody Would have listened during that time but I could have sat around and said woe is Me it's not my style I've never done That never and I wasn't going to start Then what I had to figure out is I got Two kids in private schools how we going How we going to make that work out right I got kids my kids you know I grew up Hating rich kids and now I got two of Them they like bri and [ __ ] I'm going to For Bri I got those are the problems I got So funny right Like I can no longer remain in today's Democratic party Tulsi gabard said she Is no longer a Democrat a potential Tulsy gathered VP where we are being Told that we just have to comply and go Along with whatever they say American People uh are smarter than this however We must remain Vigilant to recognize Their propaganda for what it is pure
Life unfortunately we live in a time Where free speech is under attack Whatever they say goes and we we have to Just fall and the people who suffered Under your reign as prosecutor you owe Them an [Applause] Apology taking on KLA Harris on a debate Stage before I would look forward to Doing that Again so if you like this clip and you Want to watch another one click right Here and if you want to watch the entire Podcast click right here N
