Parkour and Rough Play: Combatting the Over-Feminization of the West | Rafe Kelley | EP 343

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Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and parkour expert Rafe Kelley discuss the importance of rough-and-tumble play for developing children, how a lifestyle centered around movement can expand our grasp and involvement with the natural world, and why society should value masculine activities, rather than adhering to the push for feminization in all aspects of modern life.

Rafe Kelley is an entrepreneur and advocate for a lifestyle centered around human movement. He suffered at a young age from ADHD, causing him to struggle in school. As it would happen, he came into contact with a mentor who recognized his need for play, encouraged time in nature, and taught him to productively roughhouse. This quickly resulted in Kelley advancing in his studies, launching him on his life path. In college, he studied anthropology and evolutionary biology, falling in love with martial arts and parkour along the way. He would go on to establish the first parkour gym on the west coast, Parkour Visions, before developing a new fitness lifestyle based on primal movement that Kelley calls “Evolve, Move, Play.”

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(0:00) Coming Up
(1:57) Intro
(3:33) Rafe’s early childhood and ADHD
(5:18) The balance between the mother and father roles
(7:24) Early age crisis and mentorship
(10:57) Play and murder
(13:00) The expansion of reflex
(15:22) Cultural need for roughhousing
(18:50) Provocation and response
(22:22) Dogs need to jaw-spar
(24:39) Why people tease each other
(25:03) Lunch Bucket, initiating play
(27:08) A game that scales, low resolution maps
(30:50) Banning tag, 7 minute recess
(33:10) Women and rough-and-tumble play
(35:38) Identity confusion is late game exploratory play
(38:47) Video games out-compete traditional play
(41:39) 5 fundamental connections with the world
(44:01) Playing with children, building confidence
(51:10) Laughter on the deeper level, learning the rules
(53:35) Tools and targets
(55:30) Wrestling with god: the physical deepens the spiritual
(57:39) Animals, play, and competence hierarchies
(1:00:23) Rats, micro-victories and micro-defeats
(1:04:26) Playing with a less-abled partner, self handicap
(1:07:00) Parkour: exploratory locomotive play
(1:09:50) The jump that calls to you
(1:11:03) The highest obstacle is the greatest affordance
(1:15:34) Scaling parkour down for the uninitiated
(1:17:06) Jack White, playing on the edge
(1:18:31) Movement variation, multi-level DNA mapping
(1:22:41) Invoking the spirit of voluntary challenge
(1:23:59) Hostile brothers, dueling spirits
(1:25:34) Mapping physical and emotional courage
(1:32:34) Evolve. Move. Play.


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Should accept yourself just the way you Are what does that say about who I Should become is that just now off the Table because I'm already good enough in Every way so am I done or something get The hell up get your act together adopt Some responsibility put your life Together develop a vision unfold all Those manifold possibilities that lurk Within be a force for good in the world And that'll be the adventure of your Life The link between violent video games and Aggression is pretty damn Um Minimal what as appears to be the case Is that more aggressive boys like more Aggressive video games and there's not Much of a causal Loop there you know a Lot of this identity confusion that I See among adolescents in let's say high Junior high high school and University Looks to me like late manifestation of Pretend play that should have occurred At about the age of three I'm Particularly concerned like as you said About about video games not so much Because as you said of the content but Because of how they out compete some of These other more traditional Nourishments one of the most effective Ways that we can kind of win in the in The capitalist system is to deliver Something that is hyper stimulating

That's very cheap if junk food is is Flavor to ours from nutrition then uh Pornography is sexuality divorced from The context of relationships video games Are thrilled divorced from physicality And they can play all day without any Self-regulation from having to you know The physical demands of actual Rough and Tumble play they can practice shooting And running and jumping and all the Things that you know I did as a kid Um actually physically it's not that bad Necessarily on its own the problem is That it's so easily out competes the Actual The actual thing that we need which is The real physical play Hello everybody I'm speaking today on Matters psychological and practical I Suppose and hopefully also while Entertaining and fun as well as Appropriately serious I'm talking to Rafe Kelly today who Heads an organization called evolve move And play and Um I'm very interested have been very Interested for a long time in the role Of play in the integration and Regulation Well not only of aggression but also in The fostering of pro-social behavior at An embodied level and there's a Literature that has emerged over the Last several decades indicating that

Rough and Tumble play in particular is Important for kids at very early Developmental stages Probably from Six months Up to Well who knows up to what level Uh till you're old and then that pretend Play which scaffolds in on top of that Is also of Primary significance in the Development of the ability to act in a Truly reciprocal and social manner a Manner also that simultaneously Fosters Development so we're going to talk about That today so Rafe why don't we start With a bit of your background huh yeah What do you feel people in on on you Know your educational background your Interests and all that then we'll start Talking about getting more to the nuts And bolts of play Yeah I think given that you started with Kind of rough and tumble play it'd be Good to start with my Early Childhood so I was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia At an early age and my dad had had Similar learning disabilities that he'd Really struggled with I was kind of Raised in that counterculture so my dad Wanted to just take me out of the school System and just unschool me And my mom didn't so there's a big Conflict there and my dad kind of

Reacted to that by just sort of pulling Away from me and sort of emotionally Neglecting me so I was acting out in School and getting in lots of fist Fights Um and I I got introduced to the martial Arts when I was six years old and that Started helping me learn to regulate my Emotions and then I had a mentor who Came into my life who actually took over My education and started homeschooling Me after uh going into fourth grade And he did a few things that were really Helpful to me he you know let me spend You know just two hours a day doing Homework and then the rest of the day I Would be out running in the woods but he Also did Rough and Tumble play with me Extensively pretty much every day and so We would wrestle all the time and that Became incredibly healing for me so Through the martial arts and through Rough and double play very early on I Experienced that physical practices Could have this really transformative Effect on me how old were you when that Started that that Rough and Tumble play Yeah so my dad did a lot of rough and Tumble play with me when I was little But then there was that period where it Was more neglectful in our relationship Than this the second Mentor who came Into my life came into my life when I Was eight years old

Eight yeah yeah well that that you you Pointed out something very interesting There with regard to your father I mean I've actually seen that pattern in many Families you know and it seems so for Example I've seen within my own extended Family thinking of one couple in Particular where Every time the father attempted to Involve himself in the discipline let's Say which is really the attention and Regulation of his son his wife would in Small ways and not so small interfere Yeah in a in a rather punitive manner Um treating her husband as if his His interaction his involvement was both Inappropriate inappropriate ignorant and Dangerous something like that Combination and my experience with that Has been that what men usually do in That situation is pull away Yeah and that's really devastating for The kids You know what like the mother has to put Up a bit of a barrier because there Should be a little tension between the Parents about how the kids should be Treated and the mothers tend to be more Prone to provide security and comfort And fathers to provide Uh encouragement and Challenge and Getting that exactly right really Depends on the temperament of the Parents and the temperament of the child

And so there has to be some tension but It's unbelievably easy for Women to be overprotective of their Children enough to stop fathers from Interacting and then what often happens As a consequence of that is the women Then ask themselves why the hell the Father is more involved with the kids And Often the answer to that not always but Often is well you punished it out of Existence every time the father stepped Forward to take an interest you put up a Barrier that was non-trivial a moral Barrier often and you do that a hundred Times yeah that's that yeah so anyways That's that's a that's a common pattern And so but you had a lot of interactions With your dad when you were young very Yeah I had a very good relationship with My dad my dad's a really interesting and Creative person he uh he's a famous uh Natural Builder Um and he was very playful with me when I was young he's a really yeah Interesting person that way but he you Know he's a member of the counterculture He grew up you know my father was Actually Um In jail during my mom's pregnancy first Selling marijuana so there was real Conflict my mom had reason to be Protective in some sense and my dad was

Was struggling with with some of those Things but he and I have a great Relationship now but it did set me up For this this sort of crisis at a very Early age that then was resolved through Through getting access to Rough and Tumble play and then epic literature Which was also really important to me Yeah so this guy that the guy that Started to to play with you when you Were eight how did that come about and Why did your mother and father uh Encourage that or even allow it because That's also a place where you know People can be skeptical Yeah Um yeah there's a whole story there but Basically we we rented land so my my dad Owned uh 12 acres there was a kind of a Hippie commune and so we just rented a Space to this um couple it was two men Who'd moved in and Um my mom was desperate for her Babysitters and he offered himself as a Babysitter and then over time we just Got uh closer and closer and Um so when when my mom took me out of School initially she was going to do Some of the homeschooling and then over Time it was like the demands on her for Taking care of the family financially And taking care of my little sister uh Were sufficient that it was very Difficult for her and he was just there

And you know was willing to do it and so That's kind of how that that worked out So Um what I wanted to share was that as as I kind of then developed I was in I was in this register Circle which is a Kind of Native American religious group In my early my late late childhood early Teens and there were a lot of other Young kids there who's you know whose Families were part of it there were two Three four years old and so by the time I was 12 I started really being kind of Just being asked to to babysit these Younger kids and I noticed that they all Had this incredible hunger for a rough And humble play it was like this deep Unmet need that I was seeing in children Everywhere and so I started just being The guy who would rough house with kids Um at any social Gathering and then People started asking me to come over When I was 13 uh one of my closest Friends died unfortunately after a bike Accident he had his spleen taken out and He didn't get soda properly so he Hemorrhaged out but he had a Six-year-old brother and his brother uh Started having a hard time falling Asleep after he passed away because he Used to rough house with his older Brother every night before bed so his Mom called me and asked me to come over A couple nights a week and just rough

House with this kid so that he could Sleep and so I developed a really close Relationship with him kind of through That same relationship so I get to kind Of step into that role Um in facilitating rough and double play For younger children starting as a young Kid and then I went on to work as a Mentor for kids and my teens and then Um and then I became a gymnastics coach So independently I'd also developed just An interest in general athleticism and I Started coaching gymnastics and again I Had these young crazy boys with tons of Energy and found that they they really Just wanted someone who was willing to Wrestle with them And so I've I I've kind of done that Repeatedly and I've really seen how How Much of an impact that can have and so When I I first came across the play research Through a man named Frank Francis in his Book The exuberant animal and I started Digging into it behind that and then Came into Stuart Brown's work and I'm Not sure if you're familiar with Stuart Brown but Stuart Brown Was a psychological researcher as well And he was looking specifically at spree Killers people who go out and kill a lot Of people in one go and he was looking For any kind of common trait in their

Development that uh that would explain This pattern and what he founded was Actually Um inhibition of play that if you look At sprinklers I almost always were Prevented by their parents from playing Their parents treated play as as Unnecessary and as something that had to Be restricted and that this he believed Was the center of that and then through Stuart Brown I became aware of Jacques Pencil's work So later when I came into uh to your Work and started listening to you talk About Yak Pink's up and the Rats I was Like oh yeah this is it and then Obviously you've written that paper on Rough and Temple play in the regulation Of aggression and that that paper was Just like yes absolutely for me because I you know I was put in detention when I Was in second grade because I actually Bounced a kid's head off the concrete And like bust his nose open Um And and it was only because someone was Willing to go really deep with me into That intense physical play that I was Able to uh let go of of that need to Express the aggression in the actual Social situation and to to Develop empathy that's what I think is So incredible about you know what you've Talked about and what I've seen is that

We think that it's like just mocking out Combat and building the skills of combat But actually what you're really doing is Learning the dance of recognizing how Your touch and the way that you move With somebody Um how that plays out in them and then That's that that kind of really building Ground mirroring yeah yeah well there's Um I have a great paper on my Personality course website by uh On the hypothalamus the Name Escapes me At the moment of the author but it'll Come back but it's on the hypothalamus People can go to my psychology 230 Website on my on my home website Under Courses and uh the gentleman who wrote That paper who's a real genius Basically put a physiological scaffold Underneath uh Um Jean Piaget's ideas about the Expansion of reflex and so you know we Think of empathy as something like Theory of mind yeah knowing that I can Understand your pain but that isn't and Then and it's conceptual but that isn't Really how it works because you use your Body as a platform to to run simulations Of other people I got a friend when I Was a kid and he didn't have a father And he used to come over when this was Before I was in grade six my dad Actually stepped in sort of as a Surrogate father for him and I used to

Wrestle with this friend of mine and Every time I wrestled I got hurt he'd Stick his thumb in my eye or some damn Thing it was really awkward physically You know and I realized even at that age It was because he didn't he didn't know How to play and that dance that you Describe Of that's that's part and parcel of Extended Rough and Tumble play The reason it develops empathy is Because while you're wrestling and Playing in that physical manner You get to see first of all where you Get hurt you know how far you can be Extended and how far you can be pushed Until the excitement and challenge turns Into pain and there's a limit there and You want to actually play right up to That limit which is the exciting limit And then you learn that that's true of You and another person but you learn it You know right to the edge of your Fingertips you learn it about your legs You learn it about your back you you Have to learn that about your entire Body or you can't map someone else onto You because you don't know how it feels Well that's a fundamental issue you Don't know how it feels and so in that Rough and Tumble play You're you're Laying a level of deeply embodied Knowledge on top of emergent reflexes For motor control and then you're

Learning to integrate them into an Interpersonal dance panccept showed this Is research you made reference to that If you deprive male juvenile routes of Rough and tumble play which they do Spontaneously and they like to wrestle Then They play hyper aggressively when you Allow them to like frenetically Desperately and uh you know which sort Of reminds me of what you were saying About your expression of aggression and Their prefrontal cortexes don't mature Yeah and you can suppress their excess Play Behavior with amphetamines which is Ritalin for example and so what really Seems to have happened and this is an Epidemic and it's an appalling epidemic Is that we have all these boys who are Likely high in extroversion and openness So very exploratory boys some of them More disagreeable Souls that would make Them also more you know less naturally Empathic who are absolutely deprived of Play and so they're desperately moving Because they need to and then that's Medicalized because the goal is to sit Down and shut the hell up even though You're six years old and uh You know than the medication the Amphetamines suppress the play Instinct And this is really not a good solution This is a terrible solution it's not a Good solution it's a terrible solution I

Wrote a I wrote an essay on this for the Good men project back in I think 2016. It was just literally titled Roughhousing not Ritalin and that was That was exactly a thesis what you just Said is that we need to provide cultural Spaces for this Rough and Tumble play to Play out for young children I experience It all the time I have uh I told you Before you we started recording that I Have a five-year-old daughter I also Have an eight-year-old boy and a Ten-year-old daughter and so I've been Doing this Rough and Tumble play with Them since they were little and they've Started training martial arts when they Were little four years old Um and so they have friends over and the Friends realize that they're an Affordance to wrestle which they don't Necessarily have anywhere else and so I Get to see how a lot of these kids who Are desperate for this opportunity Become very poorly regulated in When they have an opportunity for it Right they yeah what happens well they Don't they don't they don't know how to Control their Force levels they don't Know that like it's appropriate to like Wrestle somebody and not to bite them or To throw things right right or they Can't they can't control their emotions So yeah you know like one thing I have To work on with my kids is because

They've learned Jiu Jitsu since they Were little like they're used to doing Chokes and I have to like make sure they Remember because like if you put a Chokehold on a kid who's never been Rough house with they will that will Just destroy their emotional regulation Completely and so my kids they don't Under you know for them all this stuff Is very natural Yeah yeah they don't they but they have Learned and they are learning and it's Amazing to watch how well they can Handle it and so my son who's uh eight Years old he's a little he's a little Bit smaller for his age or he's he's all He's um He's a third grader and he's just kind Of old enough to be a third grader so He's on the bottom end of that class so Kids will kind of push on him because he Seems like he's small right Um and it's amazing to watch him just Not have an emotional reaction and be Physically strong enough and and Balanced enough that when a kid tries to Punch him he you know he he moves out of The way and he grabs him and holds them With his hand and just stops him Completely Um right so it's it's really an Extraordinary part of what you're part Of what you're pointing to there is that Emergent tolerance for provocation which

Is also really important later in life Say if you're married because you need To be able to regulate your emotional Response and of course the most direct Provocation is going to be the Provocation that you experience when You're directly physically challenged And to learn to Stay within the bounds of acceptable Play while you're being provoked which Is exactly what's happening when you're Wrestling does lay the groundwork for Civilized interaction you know a lot of People When they're married they can't really Have a serious conversation eh you can't Go down Into the Depths where the real Reparation work might need to be done Because they're afraid that If they're provoked they don't know what They'll do you know and what do people Do they break down in tears and have a Fit or they get aggressive or they Respond inappropriately in an aggressive Manner and that can be physical very Quickly and then they don't know what They're doing so they're very awkward in Their aggression they don't know how to Calibrate it and so because they don't Have that underlying yeah complex dance Of You know provocation and response that's All calibrated they can't ever risk Provoking each other plus the other

Thing they don't learn which is really Important as well is that You know if you're wrestling with Someone and playing around you kind of Encapsulate the conflict and you give it A space to make itself manifest but the Rule is when you're done you're done Yeah and then you just return to normal Life and you know the other thing that People don't have often is they don't Know how to bring a fight to an end And so they won't start a fight because They're afraid that it'll never end and Then they can't talk about anything Important like it's yeah it's amazing How much of a catastrophe this really is So Okay so we've got to the point in Your life where you were about 13 yeah Yeah starting to be hired out as a child Whisperer in some sense yeah yeah two Yeah so that well you see that also That's a good analogy because you also See that with with dogs if you're Training a dog yeah a lot of what you do With the dog is physical play and if the Dog starts to misbehave the easiest Thing to do with it is just flip it on Its back and hold it down it's like no When I say no I mean stop doing that and You know you don't have to do that with A dog very often before the dog clues in Um Inflation has consequences as the FED Raises interest rates to combat out of

Control government spending long-term Bonds are diminishing in value which is Crippling the banks depositors are Holding their breath and investors are Bailing on Bank stocks diversification Has never been more important The recent surge in gold prices is Directly tied to an extremely volatile Market this is why gold has historically Been a great hedge against the stock Market and against inflation trust the Experts at Birch gold group to help you Diversify into gold text Jordan to 989898 to get a free info kit on gold Birch gold will help you convert an Existing Ira or 401K into a tax Sheltered IRA and physical precious Metals with an A-Plus rating with the Better Business Bureau thousands of Happy customers and countless five-star Reviews you can trust Birch gold to Protect your future text Jordan to 989898 to get your free info kit on gold Today then talk to one of their precious Metal Specialists that's Jordan to 989898 today The the parallels between like why play Research play is so important in humans And dogs are the same like one of the Things that I found early on in my Research into what became evolved move Play was actually I was training a dog And I and I read a book called the Sirius uh puppy training book or

Something like that and they talked About bite inhibition in dogs I said That you know puppies have to bite Because Um because that's how they manipulate The world right like puppies or like Dogs their their hands are their jaws And they want to use them and explore What they're capable of so a puppy is Going to want to jaw spar with you it's Going to want to put its teeth on you It's going to want to put its mouth on You and if you tell that puppy no every Time that it tries to interact with you Like that it won't be able to map how Its mouth interacts with you so what he Advised is that what you need to do is You you let the puppy start biting at Your hand and every time that it's the Force is too hard you pull away and you Deny the puppy what it's looking for Which is play Right and so now it's regulating its Aggression to okay I need to only bite Hard enough that this human being can Tolerate it and then he'll play with me And yeah over time then the dog develops Bite inhibition so dogs that are not Allowed Rough and Tumble play it turns Out are much more dangerous as adults Because they can't Um regulate the impulse to bite when They bite they bite fully but a dog That's been played with extensively has

A very fine-tuned capacity to control The level of force in its jaw so it has A soft jaw yeah yeah well it's quite Miraculous you know with with dogs given That they're essentially wolves you know Yeah if your dog is well trained you can Even play with them with one of his chew Toys or his bones which is really pretty Damn amazing and a well-trained dog is Unbelievably judicious with its bite Force and it will also play differently With little kids than it will with Adults which shows a tremendous amount Of sophistication on the part of the dog But that also assumes that you know You've batted the dog around and Wrestled with it and harassed it and you Know and and pushed it so that it's not Easy to provoke and that's all also why You know people wonder why people tease And teasing is a form of more abstracted Rough and Tumble plan it's it's the same Thing it's this it's this attempt to Push the the object of teasing sort of To the level of their Tolerance for provocation to see what The response is it's part of the way That people Yeah assess each other profoundly like I Told this story in my book about this Guy lunch bucket that came to work on The rail crew with us when I was working On the rail crew in Saskatchewan and he No one had ever played with lunch bucket

That's for sure and it was pretty Obvious to everybody that he was still Under the unfortunate Dominion of his Mother because she had packed him his Lunch bucket when the appropriate thing To do socially was bring a brown paper Bag that wasn't you know too special Which was also interestingly true of our High school you know and uh lunchbox it Didn't take kindly to being teased about His lunch bucket and the level of Provocation that the other guys uh aimed At him just increased and it got to the Point where people were throwing rocks At him when he was on the crew but the Reason for that was because he he Couldn't he couldn't be trusted eh if You provoked him he would respond with Too much aggression yeah and that was an Indication to everyone even though no One really knew this that he wasn't Properly self socialized and then could Be a loose cannon if the you know in a Dicey situation yeah and the other thing Too I think that teasing it's also an Attempt to initiate play you know one of The things you see with kids is that When they meet each other on the Playground is they'll immediately Challenge each other you know they sort Of start out assuming the other kid is Like younger and less developmentally Able yeah but they ratchet that up Quickly to see if they're at a

Peer-to-peer level and then they play on The edge and that'll that'll make kids Friends if if kids can play as peers on The edge then they become friends and There's a lot of mutual provocation in That and that's partly the extension of That capacity for emotional regulation As well as the extension capacity for Creative interaction Yeah if we go back to that Rough and Tumble theme Like I made a lot of my closest friends After fist fights and I was in school it Was like we had to provoke each other to That level before we could say drop into A point of trust with each other in the Kind of redneck culture that I was Growing up in which maybe it wasn't so Similar to where you grew up I want to Go back to something you said earlier Because I want to reflect a couple of Things that I learned from your work in Specifically in this this idea of of how The Rough and Tumble plays this this Game that that scales up That What I think is so profound about like JJ Gibson's work and and some of these People that we're referencing and is You actually can't see the meaning in The world if you can't act it out right What we perceive is actually dependent On how we can act and so when we engage With something like rough and tumble

We're actually mapping in the different Potential meanings of touch and when we Don't get that opportunity to engage in Rough and tumble play what's actually Happening is that we're losing the map Of what a physical interaction can mean And the other analogy of yours that I Really love is the analogy of resolution So how many how many pixels are in the Res the picture that you have of Physical touch yeah and I think what's Happening in our culture is that we've Uh We've denied people so much basic Touch and so much basic Rough and Tumble Play that we've sort of collapsed the Picture of of of Um Of touch to sex and violence and so You'll see kids engage in play and you Will see adults who are absolutely on The edge of their seats because they Can't see the difference between healthy Productive play and violence because They don't have right a refined map Yeah no that's an extremely useful Analogy and like everybody's map is Complete of everything but Maps differ Very much in resolution and that you Know the Biblical term for uh sexual Congress is knowledge yeah and that's Partly because well sex is a form of Play it's a high form of physical play And it's very properly practiced let's Say it's extraordinarily high resolution

And that's part of that Detailed exploration of the physical Landscape and the increase of the Resolution of the map and that's Definitely all part parcel of of Exploratory rough and humble play I mean Part of the reason that people are Loathe to allow their kids to engage in Boisterous play is because as you said Their maps are so low resolution that They can't distinguish between True aggression and and pretend Aggression and so there are often people Who are afraid for example of dogs Because they can't distinguish a dog With its tail wagging its mouth hanging Open you know that wants to play and is Making Maneuvers in that direction they Can't distinguish that from an Aggressive Onslaught this is why you see In schools this idiot insistence that You know there should be no competitive Play because the the the teachers who Push that Doctrine have been played with So little that they think all Play which is a form of competition it's Cooperation and competition Simultaneously they think all that's Just properly lumped into the category Of aggression and then they think all Aggression should be suppressed and it's Yeah it's it's absolutely what's Completely it's awful for young boys but It's also for women too because the boys

End up awkward then end up awkward with Low resolution physical maps and you Know they can't dance and they can't Move and they're they they're emotional Regulate regulation is volatile and yeah Yeah I think uh to quote Jordan Peterson It's a complete bloody disaster yeah Um yeah right when I first started Evolve move play Um Mercer Island which is one of the School districts though or was near us Had banned tag like completely no Touch-based games and they had they had Shortened recesses to seven minutes and Their justification for this was because They children couldn't play for longer Than 7 min without experiencing conflict And this is Jesus It's so absurd because it's like how are They ever going to learn without these Things Oh yeah well the thing is people who do Take that attack assume that Enforced zero conflict equals peace you Know when you talked about this this uh Experience you had with your friends That often you had a fight with what one Or more of them and you know that's Another thing that's quite different About boys and girls because boys will Often even with their friends push Conflict to the point of an actual fight And that generally does exactly what you Said it either if if two if two boys

Face off each other and are willing to Fight generally they won't pick fights With each other anymore that usually Brings it to an end and it's not that Rare for that to turn into a friendship Which is also very very interesting and Strange thing During the season of Lent we are called To abstain from luxuries and instead More deeply embrace our faith co-workers Around the office have mentioned giving Up coffee alcohol and social media but How about using this time to start Building a habit of prayer and Meditation Join me and thousands of others on Hallow the number one Christian Prayer App in the U.S hallow is helping me Maintain a daily prayer routine from now Until Easter and it can help you too Download the app for free at Jordan you can set prayer reminders and Track your progress along the way not Sure where to start check out father Mike schmitz's Bible in a year available On the Hallow app for brief daily Bible Readings and Reflections or pray Alongside Mark Wahlberg Jim Caviezel and Even some world-class athletes with Halo You can customize a personal prayer plan That works for you and listen anywhere You are with downloadable offline Sessions get an exclusive three-month Free trial at Jordan that's Jordan Um I wanted to go back briefly to what You're talking about with with sexuality Because uh and and I wanted to touch on Women in rough and tumble play because So we we teach Rough and Tumble play we We take the basic kind of architecture Of contact improvisation dance and mixed Martial arts and we build scalable games That are vary from totally Cooperative To hyper competitive and then we kind of You can play a very competitive game That's very safe Um by scaling the way that the players Can interact and we teach this to men And women and now my general observation Is working with kids the boys always Want to roughhouse more right my son Roughhouse is more than his sisters for Sure but the girls love to roughhouse With me and have always requested being Rough house with being wrestled with Being thrown around what I've noticed With with working with adults is that Um It's often the women actually who have The most profound experience from the Roughhousing and I think that what it is Is that our culture in general is just Suppressing Rough and Tumble play Um but women are are more likely to to Have accepted the culture's story of you Can't engage in rough and tumble play And they have fewer cultural spaces that

Really give them the opportunity to do That so they don't necessarily play like Football or get involved in a wrestling Team and so it's often women who come to Us who will say this was incredibly Healing for me and one of the things That they say is it really changes the Way that they feel about men and like Helps the sort of gender conflict to be Able to experience Doing something very competitive and Physical that has no sexual element with A man and that is really healing for Them and uh to to then bridge to the the Sexual aspect of it obviously men and Women have to figure that out but There's also research that shows that If You deny Rough and Tumble play to uh Juvenile Rats the male rats can't Successfully engage in courtship Behavior and mounting Behavior once they Become adults so if you look at the oh I Didn't know that oh oh that's very Interesting yeah and you look at what's Happening in our culture right now with The you know just complete collapse and The ability of people to form Partnerships This I think is is part of the story as Well we're denying them the basic sort Of sense of mapping and touch and Connection that is fundamental to Forming any sort of romantic Relationship

Yeah yeah well this is also uh an Interesting point to insert some Observations about cell phones yeah you Know people are often extraordinarily Concerned with the content that's being Delivered to kids on the cell phones and I think the content is relevant to some Degree I spend a lot of time for example Analyzing literature on violent video Games and aggression among boys and the Link between violent video games and Aggression is pretty damn Um Minimal what it appears to be the case Is that more aggressive boys like more Aggressive video games and there's not Much of a causal Loop there so and the Reason I'm bringing them that up is uh To indicate that content of what's being Delivered on the cell phone might not be The primary problem that might even be True for pornography what is certainly a Problem is the fact of the substitution Of the screen for such things as direct Rough and Tumble physical play or even Abstracted pretend play you know a lot Of this identity confusion that I see Among adolescents in let's say high Junior high high school and University Looks to me like late manifestation of Pretend play that should have occurred At about the age of three you know Because at three kids will experiment With well I can remember when my son was

A kid his sister he's a year and a half Younger than his sister and her friends And they used to dress him up like a Princess or like with little fairy wings And you know just as a form of Exploratory play and he got an Opportunity to inhabit that feminine World while playing with these girls and To figure out what it was like to be a Girl which is a necessary thing to do if You're going to have some empathy for Girls let's yeah but then imagine if you Suppress that and that Play even cross-gender plays never Allowed to make itself manifest then why Wouldn't it re-emerge with the Vengeance Later when the when the stage is set to Make it socially acceptable anyways it Looks to me the furry phenomena oh that Looks to me like repressed pretend play That might even be the case for late on Set autoginophilia among the the trans Guys you know God Only Knows Why that Cross-sex impulse makes itself manifest But the probability it has something to Do with suppression of the Manifest of The physical manifestation of the Feminine Spirit let's say that could Have been explored in pretend play that Seems to me to be highly probable what The men are doing when they dress up in Women's clothing is pretending obviously You know now there's a sexual element to It but but uh that doesn't mean it isn't

Pretend play Yeah I mean I think we can definitely Agree that that the suppression of play Is really a problem in that there's a Lot of cultural ground streamer facts That are going to be very hard for us to To map right and just just how much of That is I'm I'm particularly concerned Like as you said about about video games Not so much because as you said of the Content but because of how they out Compete some of these other more Traditional nourishments it gives us uh Kind of one of the fundamental areas of My thought is this idea that one of the Most effective ways that we can kind of Win in the in the capitalist system is To deliver something that is hyper Stimulating that's very cheap right so Hyper stimulating products they a friend Of mine uh who's a neurobiologist who Studies obesity he He said to me that what the food Industry has effectively done is they've Divorced flavor from nutrition And right and when I thought about that Like I immediately had this chain of Thinking which was if if junk food is is Flavor divorced from nutrition then uh Pornography is sexuality divorced from The context of relationships yeah right Video games are thrilled divorced from Physicality And so you take these boys who have this

Inherent aggression and you let them Play fortnite and they can play all day Without any self-regulation from having To you know the physical demands of Actual Rough and Tumble play they can Practice shooting and running and Jumping and all the things that you know I did as a kid Um actually physically and that's Probably not bad necessarily it's not That bad necessarily on its own the Problem is that it's so easily out Competes the actual the actual thing That we need which is the real physical Play yeah well I saw that just recently This week I was out with some young People Um relatives of mine And I had met them for years and we were In a social situation for about 45 Minutes sitting around a couch and some Some living room chairs around a Fireplace after dinner and one of them Was 13 and the other was 21 and they Just said they were just on their cell Phones the entire time the whole time Yeah and I thought well I felt I felt Very bad for the kids because I thought Well First of all I thought I was like what The hell are you doing there's five of Us around the fireplace and you're on Your phones completely engrossed in them And I don't know what you're doing on

Your phone but whatever you're doing You're not being here now with actual People and I think their whole lives are Like that and no one part of the reason Kids are so confused about their Identity is because Their identity is never played out in The actual world they're in these Virtual delusions you know because what You're describing is actually a kind of Delusion right it's an artificial world That isn't properly mapped onto the real World so delusional Landscapes of of Entertainment and that certainly is the Case for pornography yeah so Yeah so we so I mean this kind of gets To the center of my message you know Like I I think that in order to address the Meaning crisis we actually have to kind Of invite people back into their body And that there are fundamental Reconnections that we have to make with The world we have to renew that Relationship with the world so um we've Been talking a lot about the the the Rough and Tumble play and I think of That as one of like four fundamental or Let's say five fundamental connections We have with the world And those are kind of the internal Connections within the self the the body Uh to itself the body mind Spirit Emotional aspects so I think there's

Like the somatic and structural layer And then there's the body to the Environment how we move through the World That's parkour Um or gymnastics or track and field but Parkour I think is the most kind of Profound expression of it it's the Closest to the sort of exploratory Locomotor play that you find in every Culture and in Um Um and really in all other animals Almost Um and then you have the object Manipulation human beings of course are Tool using animals so right away kids Want to play with sticks and balls and Ropes and manipulate them and put them In their mouths when they're little and Figure them out and then there's other People which is the Rough and Tumble Aspect that we've talked about and then The last is I think all of those things Put us in relationship to something Transcendent when we go out and we do Parkour in nature And we work with people there's a There's an emergent spirit that you can Experience there's a sense of the Broader things that you're embedded Within and that in order to cultivate Wisdom we actually have to Um get all the way down into the body

All the way into you know like our Friend John Burbank you would say that Those lower three p's of knowing the the Participatory perspectival and Procedural those have to be played out Through embodied practices Um and and so that's you know that's at The center of it we we are we are Tempted all the time by these Hyper-stimulating products that are Designed to kind of grab onto those Areas of the brain stem that you know That evolve to be rewarded And and direct that behavior into Something that isn't what we evolved With And to recover the wisdom I think we Have to go back to those body practices So so can let me ask you some practical Questions because a lot of people who Are listening They might not even know how to initiate Play you know like people have asked me To uh to write a book on parenting you Know one of the problems I have with That is well I don't have little kids Anymore and so yeah I kind of forget What I know you know it was never Exactly Explicit now I was very fortunate when I Was a kid because both my mother and my Father paid a lot of attention to me and My dad in particular is markedly good With little kids and I think that was

Because he had a really really good Relationship with his grandfather and Had a lot of attention paid to him and So that was just an embodied practice Let's say in our household and so I know Exactly what to do with little kids you Know I'm not the least bit afraid of Them I know exactly how to play with Them even if they're timid I know how to Poke them and you know Jolly them into a Bit of a reaction and to entice them out Of shyness but I don't exactly know how To tell people how to do that so when You're when you're working with kids who Are awkward and who have been deprived Of play and you're trying to entice them Into a game you obviously thought this Through structurally what do you Actually do to to get the kids to play And how do you teach people to play with Their kids or with other people what are Aspects yeah absolutely so when we're Inviting people to kind of begin play There's a couple things that we can do One is we can think about how we can Strain the game right so all my teaching Is sort of deeply influenced by the Constraints-led approach and by the Ideas of ecological Dynamics so rather Than say trying to teach someone how to Punch before we let them Spar we develop A game that doesn't require them to know How to punch yet right so the first game That we introduced to people uh a lot of

Times in in the competitive aspect of Rough and tumble play is just like Standing on a narrow surface and Grabbing the other person's hand and Trying to pull them and off balance them So this is a game that uh works really Well to introduce competition because It's totally safe right I'm not I'm not Manipulating your body in any way that Could potentially hurt you So when they say you say stand on a Narrow surface tell me exactly what you Have people do so like a common one this Game was originally taught to me by a Friend and we just did it on like curbs In a parking lot but you know right a Lot a lot of times at my workshop you're On the edge of something yeah so there's A reason why that works it makes the win Condition a lot easier but also it Disadvantages larger athletes which is Important because the physical strength Is obviously going to to help the the Larger athletes succeed but because a Bigger athlete has a bigger moment of Sway their balance is actually a little Bit easier to compromise so you can take A small woman and a large man and if They're both inexperienced the Gap that You would experience introducing them to Just wrestling is much lower in this Initial game and so people can get a lot So they just grab it they grab one hand Yep each other off balance exactly oh

Yeah that's cool because that's that the The the conditions for victory are very Very clear doesn't require a lot of Aggression to move forward it shouldn't Be intimidating to people it the rules Are easy to learn oh yes that's a good One that's something you could play I Often with little kids like two one of The games I used to play with my kids Was just to step on their feet and then Try to step on my feet at the same time You know obviously socks and you can Make quite a noise with your foot and Kids find out and they can back off when They're you know they can back off real Easily be to get out of the game if They're feeling a little bit you know Intimidated but oh yeah they'll laugh And and cheer away at that and so that's An analogy I would say an analog to this Off balance okay so that's a good that's A good place to start so I was playing With my four-month-old granddaughter she Could actually play this game yeah it Was amazing I did it's the it's the Earliest I'd seen someone engage in Truly reciprocal play which is really Four months old so I'd go one two three Holder of my so standing on my knee one Two three and then Bop her head on mine Yeah and then one two three Bop one two Three Bob and then I started Playing with the gap between the the uh Numbers one two

And man I'll tell you after 15 Repetitions she got the game so that was Really cool because it was yeah well it Involved that immediate touch you know But so there's this it's kind of like Peek-a-boo it's like there's a Predictability and then a surprise which Is part of a game but it was it was a Harmless initiatory game but it was Really something to see that she caught On you know and it's theme plus Variation too which is exactly and you See a musical play okay so you have People trying to pull each other off Balance I imagine they're they're so how Do people react when you first introduce Them to that idea like our what's the Range of reactions well what's Interesting is we In the past more so in the past when People were less familiar with my work I Get a fair number of students almost all Of them women who would say I want to Participate in everything but I don't Want to do the Rough and Tumble play and Okay we'll get to it and you can choose Not to if you want to but you'll you Know if you see it and you want to do it Please step in and what we find is that People will tell you you know I'm scared Of this I don't like I never liked Physical aggression anything like that And you give them this opportunity to Play a game that's highly competitive

That that has a that they have a you Know like a Rel a sufficiently high Probability of winning right the 30 that Yak pinksup says right And that it feels totally safe Everybody enjoys it without fail for 10 Years of teaching this drill I've not Had one person who's come to a seminar Who have not who has not been lit up and Smiling and laughing by the end of Playing that game yeah I wonder what That laughing signifies you know when When I used to go work out with my Friends in Boston one of our games was Especially during a bench press was to Crack a joke and make the person laugh Because you lose all muscular control When you laugh hey which is extremely Interesting you know because it's Laughter produces Physiological cessation of the ability To be aggression aggressive you you just Have no muscular tension and so yeah There's there's something about laughing That's indicative of genuine safety and Peace right and it's indicative at a Very low level because it's it's Pre-conscious laughter no one if you Laugh consciously it's forced and fake It has to be spontaneous and so you see People doing this competitive Off balancing game let's say and you get Joy and laughter and that's I think That's a deep physiological reflection

Of the observation that there really is Safety and peace and and play happening In this space right it's the celebration Of that Yeah if we go back to the idea we were Exploring earlier that that like these Things are actually fundamental to how We attune and develop a real map with Somebody right what you could You know the the what I speculate now Just off what you said is that the Laughter is occurring because it's a Signal of like really rapid Attunement Between two organisms where they're Actually learning each other on a much Deeper layer than even you know verbally Is going to offer but you'll find the Same thing if you're if you're meeting Someone you have a good dynamic in a Conversation they're gonna laughter is Gonna start to generate and I think it's A signal yeah of that that sense of Safety and that joy that you're Experiencing obviously that's telling You this is valuable this is worthwhile This is something that you want to come Back to and repeat and so that sense That there's a way to compete a way to Interact with somebody that's deeply Mutually affording of development yeah Right right yes exactly that's the Spirit of play that Mutual affordance of I was remembering when my wife wasn't Played with a lot when she was a kid you

Know a pretty good sense of sharp verbal Play and she was physically comfortable In a lot of ways because she did a lot Of yoga but she hadn't been played with A lot and you know I can remember a Couple of events so we were mock Fighting at one point she came at me With her fists and I grabbed her hands And I went like this and it actually Hurt her a little bit and I said well You know when you go like this you open Your hands don't you know that yeah she Said no she'd never she'd never played Enough to know that you know someone Grabs your hands when you have fists and Brings them together you open your hands Well so I showed her how to do that and Then another time she was sitting on the Couch and I had a pillow and I went like This Which means look out a pillow is coming So I went like this and then I threw the Pillow and it got her and she you know She was a little bit uh What would you say it surprised yeah and I said well I showed you the pillow was coming why Didn't you catch it and she said well She had no idea that you know one two Three meant look out a pillow is your Way now she her siblings were much older Than her eh and so and my siblings were Very close in aged to me and so You know I had more of that intense play

Than she did but a lot of these basic Rules of physical engagement she hadn't Learned and and so okay so so now you're You're putting people on the edge you're Having them unbalance each other where Do you progress from there yeah so the Basic structure as we think about what Are the tools that we can manipulate Somebody's body with so the first tool That we allow is just the the closed Hand right Um and then what's the targets what Parts of their body can manipulate so Now we're just manipulating hand versus Hand So we have tools and targets and then we Have motion how do we limit the motion So that that constraint of standing on The the thing it it prevents them from Moving fast so we think about a game Like football where you can spear Someone with your head with a helmet on It running as fast as you can there's a Very unconstrained game with a lot of Potential danger so we're trying to do Is just find ways to scale in from there So the first thing that we're going to Do is just go from you can only Manipulate their hand with your hand so Now you have both your hands and you can Manipulate any part of their body below Their neck excluding their genitals Right so all the safe parts of the body Manipulate and now you're still trying

To off balance them and because you you Don't have to pick them up and throw Them or anything you just have to get Them to step off you still have a really Safe game right and then as we progress Up we might play a game like the game That you mentioned trying to step on Somebody's foot right this is a basic Tag game it's a tag game of tagging Somebody's foot so you can play games Like that where the target is something Like just their foot rather than trying To kick someone in the head as we would In Muay Thai but we're starting to learn How to interpret somebody entering our Space somebody you know that that Gap Closing the sense of Rhythm the sense of Timing that somebody has and all that's Going to donate to these games as we Move down the kind of the progression And then we think about the progression As working towards the highly Competitive highly free unconstrained Games like mixed martial arts but also Moving towards the highly attuned Acrobatic games like dance because we Want people to be able to to have that Sense Um you uh Your next book I believe is called we Who wrestle with God Yeah yeah and so I was listening to you Talk with John in one of your your first Interview with John and you're talking

About that idea of like maybe the right Relationship to God is to wrestle with Him it's something that you have to to Struggle with and I never thought about That precisely that embodied sense you Know although obviously when Jacob Wrestles with the angel It's physical Combat right but I hadn't I hadn't put That extra piece in there so that's very Interesting and useful I'll file that Away Yeah so the question that I had when Listening to that is how can we become The type of people who can wrestle with God If we've never wrestled Right you have to build that so I said This to one of my groups of students and And it was interesting it was the women In the group who said what if the right Relationship to God Is Dance And I said It's it's both right it has to it's got To be both Um So so in the way that we educate people Physically we want to be exploring these Two parameters of how can we can go Deeper and deeper into Attunement and The the affordances that come with Attunement and how can we compete and Press each other right to our Edge as Much as possible what's interesting that You've got two polls there eh there's

There's sophisticated dance as an Extension of embodied play and then There's sophisticated Combat as an extension of play and I Wonder if if is the do you suppose The dance element obviously Maps more Self-evidently onto male female Relationships and sex yeah and the and The wrestling per se has more to do some With I suppose something like the Hierarchical organization of the social Structure there'd be more because There'd be some dominance and submission Associated with that and the attempt to Build something like a hierarchy of Competence but it's interesting that you Have those two And extensions for that that play makes Itself manifest in relationship to and Yeah I don't I don't know exactly how to Conceptualize that well let me tell you Something this reminds me something of Another way that I've kind of like taken Some some ideas that I got from you and Extended them in my work but you've Talked about the idea that you know Dominance hierarchies are older than Trees right you can you can look across The animal kingdom and find that there's Forms of non-lethal agonistic combat by Which we determine the dominance Hierarchy so yeah what's what's Fascinating about like yuck Peng sets Rats you should call it the competence

Hierarchy yes I agree I I agree Absolutely so the competence hierarchy So rats how when they wrestle they pin Each other on their shoulders this is Fascinating because it's almost a Cultural Universal that there's some Form of wrestling that involves pinning The other guy on his back and we see This across the animal kingdom if uh Guanas right like big lizards in in um In in Australia they wrestle and knock Each other over and get on top of you Know one's pushing the other one down on The belly even venomous snakes will wrap Each other around the head and try to Press the other one's head to the ground So I think that this that there's this Central problem that animals had which Was there are better places to be in Worse places to be and we want to Determine who gets to be in the better Places and who has to be in the worst Places and we want to do that in a way That's going to be minimally damaging to Everybody so we're going to develop Right so best way of making it's the Best way of uh coping with those Occasions when the competition does have A zero-sum element to it yep yeah Exactly so but here's the interesting Thing is how the the non-zero sum Evolves out of the Zero Sum so first we Have this we're we're going to kill each Other first and then that's really

Expensive let's not do that is there a Way that we can play where we're not Going to kill each other so a venomous Snake doesn't bite with its venom it Doesn't waste that it wrestles in order To determine the hierarchy so now when We wrestle once we have that we have This capacity to exact that basic Structure to say Hey you and I we can Play this game when it's not about Actually determining the competence Hierarchy it's just about building our Confidence for when the real problem Happens So that yeah so now now all these Animals have this basic drive to engage In some kind of Competitive wrestling because it helps Them develop social competence But now all these other things can get Mapped into it it can get exacted to to Be something that's building empathy so As we become social animals now we are Actually going to this as a place by Which we begin to map in a sense of what The other is we develop a theory of mind That that stuff about Yak pancreps rats And the fact that the the bigger rat has To be able to know that if it wins too Often the small rat won't play with him That's the that's the beginning of Theory of mind yeah well I think the Rats must be evaluating you know because Imagine that in each game

There's a series of micro victories and Micro defeats and if you keep the ratio Of Victory high enough for your opponent Ratio of Victory to defeat they're going To be enthusiastic play partners and You're constantly available like when I Was teaching my kids to play ping pong You know they weren't going to win but They weren't going to lose 21 nothing Yeah you know I would just ratchet up my Skill level so that I kept them on the Edge of their performance and that meant That well they'd gain as many points as I could allow them to gain I still see That with my son you know because I Taught him to play ping pong and then he Got better than me because he learned All my tricks and his new tricks and you Know Oh it'll be frequently the case that I'm Ahead of him say 1713 near the end of a Game and then he'll really kick into High gear yeah you know and it's very Annoying because I've been working Pretty hard on my edge trying to give Him a good stomping but he has some left In reserve you know but he's calibrating We automatically calibrate if we're Sophisticated players to keep our Partner on that Dynamic edge of Development this is also why it's so Wrong to think about competition as a Zero-sum process because if you're Competing optimally first of all you

Want a well-matched partner because Otherwise it's not a fair game and it's No fun but if you're competing optimally The your opponent has micro victories The whole way along and the Rats must Pick that up you know the big rat yeah Must understand that if he's dominating Too heavily the game starts to become no Fun because the little rat gets Demoralized and then won't put up a good Scrap you've got to and you do the same Thing with puppies you know as you Mm-hmm you let them win as much as is Appropriate and it's the same with your Kids you let them win as much as is Appropriate but no more than that and You do that well simultaneously Scaffolding their Mastery yeah you're You're working to put them on that zone Of proximal development yeah right yeah Yeah and so that's the that's the key to Good play and that's what you know we Think is so important about like a Actual Rough and Tumble curriculum is That it's about educating people about How to in the deepest embodied sense Find that edge in mixed Partnerships Right where there is a massive skill Gap How could I play as someone who's you Know six foot one 220 pounds has been Training martial arts my whole life with A small woman and make the game such That she gets something out of it and I Even get something out of it

We'll be right back first we wanted to Give you a sneak peek at Jordan's new Documentary logos and literacy I was very much struck by how the Translation of the biblical writings Jump started the development of literacy Across the entire world illiteracy was The norm the pastor's home was the first School and every morning it would begin With singing the Christian faith is a Singing religion probably 80 percent of Scripts memorization today exists only Because of what is sung Amazing here we have a Gutenberg Bible Printed on the Press of Johann gooper Science and religion are opposing forces In the world but historically that has Not been the case now the book is Available to everyone from Shakespeare To modern education and medicine and Science to to civilization itself it is The most influential book in all history And hopefully people can walk away with At least a sense of that So you have this large set of embodied Skills and now you're playing with an Opponent that is uh not matched at the The like the the edge of your skill set Part of the way you do that for example Is by Imposing arbitrary limitations on the Players so they have to stand on the Edge of a curb what else do you do to Limit yourself when you're dealing with

A less able partner so that the game is Still fun for you yeah so um in the in The play research they talk about Self-handicapping you know a classic Example maybe anybody's seen is a very Large dog playing with a very small dog So if you see a Great Dane playing with Chihuahua the Great Dane will flop on Its back so that the Chihuahua can jaw Spar with it right so it's given up all Its capacity to move just so that the Game can play out in a way that works For both so we're trying to educate People as well as we move them through These stages to learn how to Self-handicap in ways that are Appropriate for them so I work on this With my kids right so my my if my son is Wrestling my eight-year-old son is Wrestling with my five-year-old Um it's like how can you limit yourself In the game such that it's actually now A fair fight and it's useful for both of You so for myself if I was sparring with Somebody right I could switch to my Offside I'm a dominant you know yeah Left hand forward so now I have to fight With the other side I can remove a hand I can't I can't use both my hands I can Create a set of techniques that I have To use Um so I can only use like I only get a You know I only give myself a point if I Do this thing not not some set of other

Things that I might be really good at Right Um I can limit my motion so you adopt a Set of limitations until exactly evenly Matched essentially yeah that's the goal Is how do I find that level of Limitation so for my my my son and my Daughter they might have a race and I Might say okay you guys want to race Um we can put her ahead or we can maybe Have you run on all fours and she gets To run on her feet and then they get Something that's mutually rewarding Right right right so so let's talk a Little bit too about um okay so we Talked about the curriculum of Development and you use basically the Equivalent of uh incremental behavioral Exposure is that exactly you're setting People in in a uh in a non-threatening Initial highly structured situation and Then you Remove a constraint at a time Essentially as people scaffold up their Ability to play how does the parkour we Should Define parkour for everybody Because not everybody listening will Know and and why don't you introduce That into it because that's also the Person against the world instead of the Person competing against another person Yeah this is the perfect Bridge so I I Found parkour when I was Um 23 years old and I've been doing

Gymnastics for some period of time Before that Um and it's very interesting because I Remember really clearly Um I was very influenced by the Lord of The Rings and I remember really clearly As a young and like 12 years old Realizing that like there were no Dragons to go out and slay physically And so when I saw David Bell the founder Of Parkour jumping between buildings I Had this really deep sense that like you Can do something heroic in life but the Challenge isn't necessarily A dragon out there it's the fears that Are inside you that would prevent you From being able to do what you're you're Going to do and so I started practicing Parkour and it completely I fell in love With it and it had this transformative Effect on me and so over the years I've Been like what is happening with parkour What is going on sorry just to Define Parkour for a moment parkour is a Discipline of learning to overcome Obstacles that came out of France in the Early or the late 90s And so it's associated with jumping Between buildings but it doesn't have to Be buildings right it's just finding Obstacles in the environment running Jumping climbing moving on the forest to Try to surpass and overcome that Obstacle I could think of it as just

Playing with obstacles and I think Fundamentally what it is is actually Just exploratory locomotor play you've Talked about um the example of again the Rap model right if you drop a rat into a New environment It'll first freeze and then it will Explore the environment but then we'll Actually play with the way in which it Moves to its environment it will add you Know variation to how it moves and by Doing so it's actually mapping all the Potential Pathways in that environment And increasing its behavioral activities The affordances and the obstacles you Bet yeah exactly so that's precisely What we're doing with parkour and I Think it's so interesting because we're Literally mapping meaning into the world Where you develop when you start doing Parkour is something called parkour Vision so you've been walking through The world for years and you see a wall And a wall just means a place you can't Go in right but now all of a sudden a Wall means a place that you can run up Or a wall means a thing that you can Flip off of or do any number of Different techniques so that wall is now Much richer for you it literally is a Source of reward to see a wall because The relationship between the walls Actually code movement that you can use And right right and so that that's how

It Maps meaning into the world and then There's this sense that You're acting out the heroic archetype Every time that you go out to do parkour Right it's it is embodying that meta Myth because you you'll be walking and You'll see a jump that calls to you And that jump is some it's it's Undifferentiated you don't yet know what You can do and it has promise right like If you do it it's really cool it's Exciting but if you fail you might get Hurt Right and especially as you scale up Your abilities like the potential Dangers can become very very high And so you get to play with and Recognize what it's like to experience Fear at a really deep level and then you Get to go through the physical process Of How does my body handle this fear what Do I need to to prepare myself and then How do I make the commitment and make The jump to the other side right right Well it's a great form of play Symbolically because you know it's You're gonna the landscape is one of Pathways affordances and obstacles That's basically how the world lays it Out itself out for us and you know you Can avoid an obstacle Yep but the the highest art is to Transform an obstacle into an affordance

Right this is no longer an obstacle it's Something that I can use in my to Facilitate my pathway forward no and That that's the highest form of play I Mean one of the things I've learned Quite With some difficulty let's say over the Last five years is that the most Adversarial Obstacles in the form of Let's call them pathologically Narcissistic and destructive journalists Are actually afford the most serious Play because the the more intense the Attack the more potential there is in Making your ability to contend with it Manifest yeah and that's a very strange Thing to learn but it's you know and It's it's not a game without high stakes But Man it's something to think about is That the highest art of Mastery the Highest form of Mastery is to turn the Worst obstacle into the most remarkable Affordance absolutely there's something There's something deep about that you Know that You may know this you probably do that Oh we calibrate a lot of fine actions With opponent processing and almost all Of our fine actions are the consequence Of two systems in our position Modulating each other so if you want to Move your hand really smoothly you can

Do it like this but it's still kind of Jerky if you analyze it at the micro Level but if you do this you can move Your hand with Incredible precision and That's an opponent process and a Tremendous number of the physiological Processes that we undertake our opponent Processes and yeah you know you have That important process Dynamic within a Marriage and you have it within a debate You have it within Play It's it seems to Be a universal principle the principle Of properly balanced opponent processing And you could think about that at the Highest level is the most the most Fundamental obstacle might be the Adversary that affords the most serious Play naxa well that's a that's a Revolutionary way to conceptualize the World yeah that's uh I love that that One that the mo The the most challenging adversary that You can handle that affords you the Capacity to play that I think is really At the center of what provides that you Know um I love the term allostasis right So we we think that we're in yeah we're Homeostasis but we're actually in a Continual process development and a Continual process of development is Always Um between these paired reciprocal uh Opponent processing systems right so the Parasympathetic nervous and the

Sympathetic nervous system so as I Was Preparing for this discussion I was Listening to your last discussion with John burbanki and uh talking to him a Little bit and I and I I was thinking About how those Those those connections that I talked About the fundamental connections that a Practice has to offer it has to Integrate the self better right it has To integrate the self with the physical World better it has to integrate the Self with the things we can manipulate Better and with other social beings Better and then with this concept of the Transcendent all of those are also all Goes integration okay yes why are they All opponent processing because you can You can you can split the self right You're you're a Unity but you're also a Multiplicity and when you can look at Yourself and you've talked about this if You want to think deeply about something You have to argue with yourself you have To create two different dialogues in Your head so there's this fundamentally Dialogical process and you can you can Embody that by just creating tension in Your body between different systems and Feeling how you know These two things now now I'm playing That and how I can grow with it and then You can think about can my mind control My body better or can my body support my

Mind better right and all those things Can be in in Dynamic composition and Obviously once we get to parkour right That that body environment practice the The environment is the opponent right And I'm learning to have greater and Greater Mastery greater and greater Affordances available to me through that Relationship and then the same thing When I learned to throw and catch and Swing objects and then obviously do fine Crafting things which are kind of the The developmental derivative of those Basic play instincts to play with Objects And then obviously when I'm engaged in Rough and tumble Play It's opponent Processing and so yeah I think Fundamentally we need an embodied set of Physical practices that allow us to a Tune our relevance realization across These fundamental relationships in order To act out the meta myth that you Described in maps and meaning Yeah yeah well that that seems that Seems right how do you scaffold parkour For people we talked a little bit about How you introduce new kids or adults for That matter who haven't played I really Like the curb game I think that's I'm Going to play that with my grandkids That's a good idea that's really good You could do that by having people stand On their tiptoes too yep absolutely so

Then the defeat would be that you put Your feet on the ground yeah and that Would be a good way of putting a larger Person off balance as well as you you Can fight with me but you have to stay On your tiptoes yeah yeah so that's Really good so but how do you it I Because I I have done anything like Parkour you know and so I'm kind of Wondering how would you how would you Introduce someone or how would someone Introduce themselves to that rail yeah Well if you think about his exploratory Locomotor play everyone's done parkour Right you've you've gone to an Environment and been like how do I get From here to there that's that's the Fundamental thing right is just go out And do it so you can just you could Um there was a group in the UK the Parkour dance company that did some Really beautiful things on training Parkour for adults in their 70s and 80s Right and they had them like walking Through a park sitting down on a bench Spinning around and standing up on the Other side of the bench and then they Could lay down on their stomach and spin Around to the other side then they could Vary maybe they feel comfortable Spinning to the right and less Comfortable spinning to the left and Then they can just get competent at both Right just getting up and down off of a

Chair you could have thousands of Variations that you can explore getting Up and down off of the ground all of Those things we can expand our Affordances and and and children will Inherently do this I saw a documentary With Jack White when he was traveling Through Canada and Jack uh he sets up His stage in a very interesting way so First of all he plays this really old Beat up guitar yeah and it's just he's Had it forever and it's just done you Know and it never stays in tune so while He's playing on stage he has to tune his Guitar Non-Stop and then he plays a Bunch of different instruments you know Laid out on the stage but he puts them In places that are awkward to get to so That he has to stay on the edge to play The damn instruments and you know partly What he's doing in his live performances He's he's Um uh what would you call it modeling That ability to stay on the playful Edge And the way he does that is by setting Up artificial obstacles in his Environment and then having to Creatively transform them into Affordances on the Fly and so that's That's really well he's very wise and And Jack White's a particularly Interesting musician because you know He's got got real heavy metal Edge kind Of LED zeppeliness heaviness to him yeah

But what Jack is an extremely his lyrics Are extremely optimistic and positive And he's extremely playful and so he's a Master of that transformation of the Obstacle into the affordance it's uh It's he's basically doing parkour he's Creating a locomotive challenge yeah Yeah to be able to access his instrument So that he can get a deeper experience Of play and share that with his audience That's uh right right so one of the Things you recommend is like even if I Wanted to get up out of my chair I could Use my left foot yeah my right foot Right just vary that so that yeah I see That's very interesting you could spin On your way up Yeah right what are the relationships so You know just like contralateral versus Ipsilateral so I'm gonna put my my left Foot on the ground on my right hand and Then I can switch to the other side then I can lean everything on one side right I can do a spin as I stand up There's so many little fine-tuned Variations that we can find once we take On this exploratory ethic in Relationship to our movement and as we Do that we're going to be refining and Making more sophisticated the body and I Believe when we put that in Um in Dynamic relationship to these Other sets of practices we get to Extract those insights out and create a

More coherent complete approach to Character development Right right well we and we could think About that two ways you know one way is That you're mapping a broader set of Possibilities onto any given object Exactly the objects aren't objects their Affordances and obstacles they're not Objects and so you're expanding your map Of the possibility of the world in your Relationship to it and so that is an Expansion of the meanings of the world But the other thing you're doing too you Know we can imagine if I if I Concentrated for a month on doing things Left-sided instead of right-sided I'm Gonna Instantiate a series of Neurophysiological changes right so I'm Going to start building new motor maps And that'll be a form of neural growth And neural regeneration I'm going to Redress the imbalance between the two Sides of my body but it's also the case That You know those physiological Transformations Cascade all the way down To the cellular level and if you if you Put new stresses on yourself especially Voluntarily you turn new genes on to Code for new proteins and so yeah not Only do you remap the meanings of the External world but you also literally Open up new physiological possibilities

From the cellular level Upward at all The levels of your organization you know Your internal physiological organization And release new elements of your Character so it's partly an expansion of The map but it's also an expansion of of Psychophysiological capability all the Way down to the cell yeah yeah yeah yeah Absolutely so you So we map the meaning into the world and The meaning that's available to us in The world is always contingent on the Action capabilities within the self but It was so beautiful about the way that You just said that it made me think so Much of like the jungian concept of the Self which again you introduced me to But right the self is that the highest Potential that that second self that's Laid out over time and so what you're Pointing out is that when we engage with These physical practices we are actually In some sense being able to bring into The body a more complete representation Of that self Yeah you bet well you can think about Imagine that coded into the DNA The DNA is a repository of potential but The potential won't make itself manifest Without the requisite Demand right it Has to be the stress has to call the Potential into being and so that that Play you know maybe it's left-sided play It's going to produce a new form of

Stress that's a new kind of demand and That's going to unlock new potential and Part of that self you know Jung likened That self to the oak tree that's Implicit in the acorn yes and so it's a Potential that could expand itself out Into space in a variety of different Ways but that that that there are many Potential trees inside a particular Acorn you could think about it that way The oak is going to develop differently Depending on the soil that it's placed In but that's the case for all of us at Any moment is there are still many Potential selves that are locked into The Into the potential of the DNA coding and That can be enticed outward with the Appropriate voluntary stress the other The other thing that's interesting about That too is imagine that not only are You calling on as of yet unrevealed Physiological potential right down to The cellular level but you're also Practicing the physiological Instantiation of a particular Spirit and The spirit would be that of voluntary Challenge right so all the practices You're described of you're describing Are undertaken in the spirit of Voluntary challenge yes and so while You're becoming better at each skill You're also becoming better at Manifesting the Spirit of voluntary

Challenge and that's that's like a meta Spirit right and there's no reason to Assume that that isn't encoded In genetic potential as well and so that Idea of communing with the heroic Ancestor you know if that's part and Parcel of the process of ancestral Communication ancestor worship let's say That expands out to something like Oh well it expands out in the in the Jewish writings into like apprehension Of God himself it's the it's the Realization of that implicit potential It's the practice of the realization of That implicit potential that actually Constitutes the union with that spirit Yeah that's beautiful I was literally Just reading I was I read through all The the beginnings of the chapters of Maps of meaning yesterday Um and uh the chapter on Um on the Hostile Brothers right not the Middle section you talk about the idea That there's there's two sort of Um transpersonal archetypes that we can Play out right at the individual level There's the one there's this the the Spirit that takes on the idea that the World is inherently good and that I can Reveal that good through interacting With it and then there's the spirit that Sees the insufficiency of the world and Falls in love with its own rationality And that that gives rise to Assa a kind

Of tyranny and I was and I was thinking About you know I I feel like the The digital world view that we're the Mechanistic digital Cartesian world view That is is sort of predominant right now It is much more that that second spirit And that in order to to to step outside Of it in order to re-ground ourselves we Actually have to physically embody what That is and that's exactly what these Practices do they take you into acting Out that heroic archetype that Exploratory heroic archetype and as I've Built my ideas over the years what I've Seen is that like parkour can be Transformative but it can also fail to Transform because it's only one way of In which we relate to the fundamental Aspects of reality but when we put it in Dialogue with these other aspects of Practice all of a sudden that Transformational capacity is is Increased so why why does it why does it Fail and why is it so necessary to put It in context with the other practices Yeah so can it fail yeah the Um I I when I started parkour I felt like Had dramatically transformed me and Everyone around me who's starting Parkour at the same time we all had this You know Messianic I mean part of this Is just developmental right we're all

Late adolescents in some sense early 20s And there's you know you're going to be Messianic about whatever Collective Identity that you take on but Nonetheless we did have this feeling and Then uh over time what I noticed was That people would talk about the changes But I wouldn't necessarily see the Change or then other people came into Discipline who were hobbyists and they Didn't really see the transform of power So I started asking how do we get that Transformative power And like the big the bigger one that I See all the time is like parkour is Predominantly a young male sport it's Like 90 young men who do it and a lot of Times they are kind of nerdy kids they Didn't have a strong sport background They're small and you know not Physically strong when they start and They come into the sport and they Develop these beautiful incredibly Strong physical bodies they get Healthier they change their diets their Skin clears up and all of a sudden They're literally physically beautiful Young men and they're hyper courageous Right they can jump between buildings And do multiple flips but they still Can't talk to a girl Right right right and it's like you talk So much about how this has made you Courageous but in this very fundamental

Thing you are not expressing that Courage So if we're if we're practicing Generalization exactly so we In any practice I believe Um we we need to recognize that the Local game is always Um kind of a distraction from what Actually we're trying to accomplish Which is that General Adaptation to the Metagame so if we take on parkour as a Practice and we think about it as a Practice that that builds us towards the Metagame then then that's automatically Going to start I think potentiating the Transfer but then we can ask Is there just a better way for me to Cultivate courage right now maybe I need To go do Toastmasters maybe I need to go To a contact improv class and when you Start to kind of schematize that that You need connection and Attunement Across these fundamental connections oh These fundamental uh axes then you you Can you can start to piece together the Areas of your character that are right So how do you how do you lay out the Axis again you you talked about internal Integration yes you're talking about Integration between people you talked About integration between the Sexes Let's say and you talked about Integration in relationship to uh the Natural world so those are all those are

All different domains of games yeah and You could think of the metagame as Emerging out of all those domains right You have to snap to yourself you have to Be mapped to other people you have to be Mapped to the other sex you have to be Mapped to the world yeah and you can't Concentrate on any one of those at the Expense of the other without becoming Yeah So the five of the five that that I that I've been using are the the Relationships internal to the self right And those are structural and Psychological Um the relationship between the self and The physical environment as a set of Obstacles and affordances we move Through and then you could Nest this Within that but I think it's useful to Separate out as human beings the objects That we can manipulate right and you see This in in uh in play research as well Play research talks about exploratory Locomotor play object oriented play and Rough and Tumble play So if we if we take those those Fundamentals so you're you're you have The first intrinsic and if you look at Like a little baby how do they start Playing they're like where's my toe Right where are my fingers how do I move This body what's rolling that's like the Somatic instructional layer and then

Then they're able to crawl and cruise And climb and that's that parkour layer And then they're they're able to pick Things up and manipulate them that Happens at the same time but those are Kind of two separate aspects of Development and then they're always Interacting with their their mother First and their father and their their Siblings in the rough and double play is Scaling up and then all that in some Sense is nested in in these higher Spiritual aspects which I think are also You know you've talked about the Development from exploration Behavior to Play to Ritual So you can see that development there so Those are the five axes and then within Obviously the interactive element we Have you know uh sort of like uh inter Intersexual like how men learn to deal With men how women learn to deal with Women and then you have the intrasexual And then there's obviously the romantic And sexual aspect of that which can Which obviously dance is an Extraordinarily important aspect of that Is you know you've explored does that All makes sense the way I've laid that Out yeah yeah yeah yeah well I like the It's nice to lay out the different The diff Escape so that people have some Sense of the different domains in which Mastery could be pursued and

Accomplished and it's also useful to Point out that You don't want to allow the practice to Become an end in itself exactly I mean The purpose of becoming great at Basketball isn't to become great at Basketball it's to become great at being A human being and that's going to Involve a lot of teamwork and a lot of Coaching and a lot of mentoring and a Lot of fair play and and you know maybe Attention to the to the structure of the Sport itself all of that but exactly you Don't want to make your discipline a Dead ant And precise that it should be Generalized is extremely important yeah And so Because that otherwise you could get Locked within your subculture and that's When things get kind of cult-like yes And and I've seen this repeatedly every Every practice that I've seen someone Say is transformative I've seen that There's a dark side to it so in parkour You can say I'm gonna go do this jump And that's going to make me more Courageous because I'm facing down my Fear and it can absolutely do that but There's also this weird way in which you Can become a place in which you can Reinforce the image of yourself as Courageous as you're failing to act it Out everywhere else in your life it's

Like no I'm too afraid well that's a Video game problem too yeah exactly same Thing same thing yeah so then take Something like meditation vipassana Right you're learning to calm yourself Down to be focused But then I've seen people who get Trapped inside that that state and they Can't they can't access it outside of it They can become even more fragile their Equanimity can become more fragile Through the practice So but if you take parkour and you take A focus practice the focus practice Helps you actually attune to and get Into flow state within the parkour and The parkour actually creates a arena in Which you can test whether your Meditative practice is actually having The effect that you're looking for so by Having these opponent processing Relationships between all these Different practices that's why I believe That is fundamental too a real Cultivation of wisdom Right right so so tell me about uh tell Me about your Enterprise per se like if People go onto your website for example What do they find what do you offer and And how can people Engage in this and duplicate it you know In for themselves in their own lives Yeah so we have a website of on there you can find

Online courses that get you started they Start with parkour and then add in Elements of other things Um so we have our online courses people Can check those out and then we teach Retreats that's really the center of What we do so uh we're in the middle of Kind of selling this year's Retreats uh We have some soft spots left so if People see this and want to join us Um they probably want to to get on that First in the Retreats that's where we're Able to go deepest into this full Experience because we talk about those Five fundamental practices that I that I Mentioned it's four fundamental Practices that afford five connections But then we we also go into the Mindfulness practices which are kind of A derivative of the somatic and Structural layer and then into the Nature connection practices learning About the world that we experience and Being able to craft and use it which Comes out of the second two and then Into the dialogical right so is Something that John burbanki again our Mutual friend has really helped us with Is like adding in some of these deep Dialogical practices so that we are We're getting people in conversation Um and then doing circles and then in Storytelling and even in Theatrical Elements to get all of these things sort

Of Um coming together and there's a ritual Aspect to it as well uh so we have two Why would people experience oh yeah Sorry go ahead obviously you can lay That out tell me exactly what happens When someone comes to a retreat Absolutely so we have two five-day Retreats and one a day retreat in the Summer Um and when you come essentially we'll We'll pick everyone up and then as they Arrive we will take them through a set Of practices that involve both physical Aspects and they're very gentle sort of Rough and tumble aspects and dialogical Aspects so that they can get as much of A sense of Attunement to everyone else In the group as possible right away then We'll have dinner and we you know kind Of make as much you know local fresh Food as we can to support people because The food element is a huge part actually Of how people Bond as well and doing That right is really important Um and then we'll have an opening Ceremony and that opening ceremony is a Way of creating commitment and and bond In the group And of sort of exiting the world that we Were in before we entered this Um so actually like use a piece of this So I had a bunch of really intense uh Stuff going on with business and some

Political stuff in my community that was Taking my attention when I got the news That you and I were gonna have a Conversation today and so I was like I Need to let go of all of that so that I Can be show up best for this Conversation with Jordan so I went down To Um the there's a there's a cliff with a Beautiful pool of water underneath it's About 15 uh uh 15 minutes from my house Walk so I walked down there and I did a Little Mantra saying I'm going to let All that go when I hit the water I'm Washing all that away and I'm going to Be focused on this one thing that's Central for me right now and then so I Did a mantra for like five minutes and I Did some some like Qigong practice Standing on the top of this cliff and Then I jumped into the water and I came Out and sure enough like I was so much More ready to be focused once I exited The water so we'll do a similar type of Process with someone when they arrive For this retreat 3 and then over the Course of the retreat will take them to A bunch of beautiful spaces so there are Spaces where we as I mentioned jump into Water from Cliffs there's actually a Tunnel through a waterfall that we have Access to and can take people through And that's a really intense rebirth Experience to actually climb up through

This tunnel where water is pouring down In your head is extraordinary and then There's like Driftwood on the beach that We teach Parkour in and there's uh Sandy Beach that we wrestle and do all the Rough housing practices and we even play Some like team sport type games going up This hill of sand and it's very nice Because it's safe because of the sand And then we have these beautiful trees That we move through you know human Beings Are are the sense of 60 million years of Arboreal Evolution so we take people Back into moving in the trees Um And we take people up to Alpine lakes And swim in the Alpine Lakes we take People to natural water slides and every Day we're sort of weaving together the Basic fundamental structural practices With learning how to move effectively Through the environment With learning how to move effectively With other people and with playing games With balls and sticks and ropes and then We also take them into those mindfulness Practices the dialogical practices and Um learning like the language of the Birds that we experience around us Learning tracking learning wild edibles So they're more deeply connecting and Mapping out the connection between the Human being and the natural world so I

Could go on and on how long have you Been doing that uh this is the 11th year That we've been offering these Retreats Oh yeah and so how many people have you Have you offered the retreats to about Now I'm not sure uh so the first few Years we just did one Retreat a year and We take approximately 20 students per Retreat and then the last few years We've been offering three Retreats a Year so maybe 300 people something like That and so what what what do people Report what's their experience and and Yeah do you have any sense of what the Longer term impact is in in their life Yeah I mean so uh John said it was the Most I think he said it was the most Transformative experience of his life Which is uh extraordinary oh yeah yeah That's an extraordinary feather in my Cap right to to hear that that's for Sure yeah yeah yeah definitely Definitely and so why did he feel that So if I can remember correctly John and I had a whole conversation about this on His channel but it was The sense of of taking on those intense Physical practices and feeling like he Was kept right at the appropriate Edge For him through the whole time and then Being able to have a group of people who Is cohering and giving him a deep sense Of connection at the same time Um as well as right we have the nature

In which we experienced and he for him Because he and I had been friends for a Long time online but not having met in Person it was particularly powerful to Have me support him through that process Something he talked a lot about yeah Well and I mean John like like me we we Operate a fair bit in the abstract realm And so yeah doing something that's more Uh Um physical more embodied and but also Aiming at something profound can imagine That that would be a a different kind of Qualitatively deep experience yeah all Right and so that's had that's that Evolve move play yeah if people are Interested and what's the and so if people who Are watching are interested in following Up on this that's where to do it we're Running out of time here on the YouTube Segment of this discussion we're going To move to the Daily wire plus platform We'll talk for another half an hour uh I'd like to walk through your Developmental history a little bit more And and understand although we did some Of that so but we'll do a bit more of That on the daily wire plus side so for Everybody who's watching and listening Like this This notion that our physical embodiment Is the platform on which our Spiritual Development takes place that's an

Extraordinary important thing to realize That all of that has to be integrated And the bodily element of it is not by No means trivial the notion that that's Elaborated up past internal integration Into the social world through play That's an absolutely critical crucial Key realization I would say especially If you're trying to do something like Revivify the child you lost when you Grew up right you ReDiscover that in the Spirit of play obviously the practices That Rafe is leading people to adopt are Centered on that rekindling of the Physiological relationship and so on if I find that extraordinarily interesting It's so nice to see some of the concepts That I was wrestling with 20 years ago On the play front make themselves Manifest in in practice Um anyway so if people are into Interested that's Where you check this out and you can Follow us on to the Daily wire plus Platform if you're inclined and thank You all for attending and listening Thanks Ray for talking to me today it Was extremely interesting and uh Um to the film crew here in where am I I Am in Saskatoon Saskatchewan to the film Crew here thanks a lot for your help Today guys and Rafe will head over to The Daily wire plus platform it's been a Pleasure

Good talking to you Hello everyone I would encourage you to Continue listening to my conversation With my guest on

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