Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Newt Gingrich discuss the state of conservative politics, why the young generation is drawn to it now more than ever, and how across demographics, big changes are in store following the midterm elections.
Speaker Newt Gingrich is Chairman of Gingrich 360, a multimedia production and consulting company based in Arlington, Virginia. As former Speaker of the House of Representatives, Gingrich is well known as the architect of the “Contract with America” that led the Republican Party to victory in 1994, creating the first conservative majority in the House in 40 years. He was a Republican candidate for President of the United States in 2012. Gingrich is a Fox News contributor, podcast host (Newt’s World), and syndicated columnist. He is the author of 41 books, including 18 fiction and nonfiction New York Times bestsellers. His latest books include Beyond Biden: Rebuilding the America We Love and Trump and the American Future: Solving the Great Problems of Our Time.
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— Chapters —
(0:00) Coming Up
(1:34) Intro
(4:25) The Contract with America
(10:26) Main emerging platforms
(15:00) The consequence of a balanced budget
(20:14) Why did the balanced budget vote fail?
(26:15) Managing a vision
(31:26) Splitting the party
(35:40) Donald Trump, changing mindsets
(45:40) Collusion on a new scale, big pictures
(50:00) Demographics push back on woke-ness
(55:35) Immigrants and Conservatism
(59:00) Sacred axioms, the new modern religion
(1:04:12) Boiling eggs by way of the freezer
(1:12:20) Cleverness has replaced wisdom
(1:14:40) The intellectual divide
(1:16:17) Prattling nonsense and living by whim
(1:24:58) Emerging visions
(1:28:46) Meaning is accrued through responsibility
(1:34:35) Rites of passage, emerging as an adult
(1:39:50) What we need to offer
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Imagine that we have a hierarchy of Conception Such that some things we perceive and Conceive of are shallow and other things Are deep and the Deep things are those Upon which many ideas are are dependent The deeper down you go the more it Becomes religious in some real sense and So there’s no getting away from the Religious if you think about it Technically in that manner and then if You don’t have a religious story or a Religious substrate then it seems to me That what happens is the political Starts to become the substitute for that Depth Dennis Prager has a very nice Formula he says big God small government Big government small God what you have In some ways is the ferocity Of the Reformation uh you have the the Kind of attitude which was captured in a Man for all seasons where the Son-in-laws ask you know would you knock Down a law to get the devil and he says Well of course and he said and then Would you knock down the next law and Then when you finally end up uh having Driven the devil all the way to Wales And he turns what is going to stand Between you and him now that you’ve Knocked down all the laws all of this is Is a is a modern religion and I think Has to be dealt with you know that That’s why I’m working on this paper on
The Democratic parties two wings as Weird and insane the weird Wing is sort Of in touch with reality but weird uh The insane Wing is totally out of touch With the real world and is drifting off Into a Never Never Land in which it is Quite prepared to kill people like you And me if that’s the cost of getting to Nirvana [Music] Thank you Hello everyone I have the great Privilege today of speaking with one of The most remarkable political figures in The U.S in the last four decades five Decades perhaps Dr Newton Gingrich Speaker Newt Gingrich is Chairman of Gingrich 360. a multimedia production And consulting company based in Arlington Virginia As former Speaker of the House of Representatives Gingrich is well known As the architect of the contract with America that led the Republican party to Victory in 1994 creating the first Conservative majority in the house in 40 Years He was also a republican candidate for President in 2012. Gingrich is a Fox News contributor Podcast host newt’s world and syndicated Columnist he is the author of 41 books Including 18 fiction and non-fiction New York Times bestsellers his latest books
Include Beyond Biden rebuilding the America we love and Trump and the American future solving the great Problems of our time Gingrich and his wife Ambassador kalista Gingrich host and produce historical and Public policy documentaries recent films Include the first American and divine Mercy the canonization of John Paul II Recognized internationally as an expert On world history military issues and International Affairs Newt Gingrich is The longest serving teacher of the joint War fighting course for major generals He also teaches officers from all six Services as a distinguished visiting Scholar and professor at the National Defense University In addition Dr Gingrich served as member of the Defense policy board he was a member of The terrorism task force for the Council On Foreign Relations and he co-chaired The task force on United Nations reform A bipartisan Congressional effort to Modernize and improve The United Nations The gingriches reside in McLean Virginia And have two daughters and two Grandchildren I thought maybe we’d start By talking about Your your contract with America which Was a a major political initiative back In the 1990s mid 1990s I think it
Originated in a speech that Ronald Reagan gave in I believe 1985. I’ve been Working with a variety of people Recently on formulating something Approximating a Manifesto of Conservative values and that was Something that you did essentially at a More political level with the contract With America and so could you tell me a Bit about why you did that what your Motivation was how that worked and and What and what came what what occurred as A consequence well sure first of all if You are Trying to be the party of change Uh it’s very helpful and I think almost Essential that you outline a formula Uh for change there’s something Margaret Thatcher did beginning in 1975 and which I had studied a great deal and I worked With Reagan starting in 1974 and in 1980 We had the first capital steps event the First contract uh and Reagan outlined Five Big Ideas and it led to uh and we Had all of our candidates standing on The capitol steps and it led to a Surprising series of victories in the U.S Senate we took control when nobody Thought we would so I had that Background of having already done that I believed and I still believe and I Think will be true this year that uh When you are the party seeking change You have to nationalize the election
Uh there has to be a common theme a Common argument because you have to Build a wave of support bigger than Individual candidates can create And so in 94 We really were working off of that Framework in the two books I always Recommend to people are Claire Berlinski’s there is no alternative why Margaret Thatcher matters and Tom Evans Book the education of Ronald Reagan his Years of General Electric and if you Read those two books you could almost See how the contract emerged It is true as one of Reagan’s Biographers said that about 70 percent Of the contract can be found in the 1985 Reagan State of the Union but that’s Because Reagan had begun articulating The need for profound change as early as His speech for Goldwater his national Televised speech in 1964 which is still Available on YouTube called a time for Choosing and is a remarkable speech and Then when he ran for governor in 1962 Five he began running and he ran with Welfare reform as one of his first Topics so this uh the concept of for Example being for welfare reform had a Long gestation uh and had been uh Dramatically accelerated by a book that Charles Murray wrote called losing Ground which proved pretty conclusively That government inspired dependency is
Very destructive and particularly Destructive for people who are poor Um So that was the background we had a Couple of very simple principles No issue was involved there wasn’t above 70 percent approval and the reason there Is if you’re a conservative in virtually Every country in the world the media Will be opposed to you and so you have To have issues that are so powerful that After they got done lying about it You’re still above 50 percent so you Can’t afford to wage a campaign on a 55 Issue because by the time the media is Done lying about it you’ll be down at 40. but if you have a 70 or 80 issue They can’t lie enough to make the issue Unacceptable so we consciously put those Together the other thing we did that was Probably unusual and people I think Didn’t fully appreciate its time we did Not pick up two of the issues I Personally believe in right to life and School prayer because we knew that the New York Times And The Washington Post And others would use those issues to uh Demagogue about the contract and to make It impossible to ever get to the other Issues Um we then had to get all of our members To agree to it and the one person the One politician at least who understood What I was doing uh was Chuck Schumer
The Democratic leader of the Senate who Wrote a book in 2007 and devoted a Chapter to the contract and said Correctly that the greatest purpose of The contract was not just to win the Election But it was to radically change the house Republican party that by getting them Committed to these really big changes And to a timetable of voting on all of It in the first hundred days I Guaranteed that the first majority in 40 Years would be by Washington standards a Radical majority Uh and if we simply won elections Without the contract uh the lobbyists And the interest groups would have Absorbed most of our members and we Would have been as useless as most Congresses are so uh there was a lot of Conscious thought about what we were Going to do both in terms of values and In terms of actually being able to Implement it and he also understood uh The Reagan principle that if you could Get a 70 or 80 percent issue and you had The nerve to stay with it that Ultimately the president would have to Side with you and that’s what happened I Mean Bill Clinton signed bill after Bill After Bill that nor normally no liberal Democrat would have signed but because He wanted to get reelected he got in the Habit of working with us even though it
Infuriated liberal Democrats and the Result was we got welfare reform on the Largest capital gains tax cut in history Food and Drug Administration reform Telecommunications reform meta of care Reform in an election year which was Amazing and ultimately we produced four Consecutive balanced budgets the only Four balanced budgets consecutive uh in Our in my lifetime What were the main platforms that that Emerged out of the contract for America The idea that we wanted to move people From dependency to work we wanted to Change the nature of the welfare system So that it’s when you went to a welfare Office instead of having a clerk who Tried to maximize your dependency we Turned them into employment offices we Were deeply affected by a firm called America Works which uh interestingly Mario Cuomo the Democratic governor of New York had helped create and it was a Very effective entrepreneurial Work-oriented system still exists Designed to take the hardcore unemployed And train them into being able to hold Down a job uh so so we I would say Welfare reform is Far and Away our Biggest success the second one was uh in A sense ironically uh we we’ve Campaigned on a constitutional amendment To uh require a balanced budget we got 300 and I think six votes in the house
Which was enough for a constitutional Reform we fell one vote short in the Senate so it didn’t pass But we realized if you had 306 votes in Favor of a balanced budget and if you Had 66 votes in favor of a balanced Budget in the Senate You could pretend that you had passed it And just go ahead and pass a balanced Budget and so that decision which was Entirely uh Uh an act of will in the part of the House Republican leadership led to a Project which within four years had Balanced the federal budget when almost No one thought it was possible uh we Also had very strong Provisions about Applying to the Congress every law which Applies to small business we had a Provision for you know the how this is Really ironic the house in its entire History for over 200 years had never had An audit Uh they spent money every year a member Spent money every year and when they had No capacity to be audited and so part of What we committed to was creating an Annual order which still exists to this Day Um the tax cut we could we campaigned on Which included uh eliminating any Capital gains tax on your home as long As you reinvested the money in another Home
Um and which had the largest cut in the Actual capital gains tax in American History uh was just extraordinary in Launching a a generation of economic Growth and finally we had very strong Provisions on deregulation because we Felt that the government bureaucracies Were killing our economic growth and the Result was we had literally I think a Decade of entrepreneurial and small Business activity that would not have Occurred without the contract and Without the Republican majority The midterms are upon us and it’s time For some real change inflation isn’t Going away and if the current Administration keeps handing out free Checks Americans won’t just be hurting They’ll be fighting to survive the Typical Investment Portfolio of 60 40 Stocks and bonds is down by 34 percent It’s worst drop of the century millions Of Americans are taking a hit what can We do to set things right you could Invest in assets that aren’t dragged Down by the stock market like fine art With Masterworks Fine Art Is So Disconnected from stocks that even as The 60 40 portfolio keeps losing Fine Art is selling for 26 more than it was Last year just recently Mass work sold a Painting for a 21.5 net return to their Investors go to masterworks.com and use Promo code jbp to sign up for
Masterworks and skip their waitlist That’s masterworks.com promo code jbp or Click the link in the description see Important disclosures at masterworks.com CD [Music] So what do you think the consequences Were of the welfare reform Provisions That you that you introduced well I mean We know from studies that getting people In the habit of going to work getting Them into their first job having them Learn that it’s okay to get up on Monday And go do something Um having them begin to realize that if They worked hard they could actually get A better job so if you see it as a Emotion picture and not a snapshot it Isn’t just the first job that the first Job leads to a second job and a third Job and I think the net there’s no Question the net result was because There have been lots of studies the net Result was millions of people who left Dependency got a job uh the largest Number of children taken out of poverty Because the incomes of their families Went up uh in American history and it Was wildly successful but it went Straight against the left which hated The idea of having a work ethic and Getting people out of dependency I mean There there was just this almost rabid Feeling uh one one of the democratic
Leaders and then we split the Democrats 50 50 because it was so popular that Half of them voted with us uh to pass it And Bill Clinton signed it but the ones Who didn’t vote for it were from very Liberal districts and you know one of Them basically said you know this was Like the Nazis they’re coming for your Children they’re going to starve Children I mean the language was Unbelievably hostile and personal and Vicious and it and there’s something on The left That loves dependency and hates work I Mean it’s a very strange phenomenon and I think probably goes back to uh the 19th century rejection of Industrialization So you you ran your your your crew ran Four balanced budgets as well and so Let everybody who’s listening know what The consequence of a balanced budget is And then more importantly what the Consequence of an unbalanced budget is And what the cumulative consequence is That especially right now Well actually I’ve been deeply uh shaped By studying uh British budget policy in The 19th century and the recovery from The scale of debt in the Napoleonic Wars And the way in which the British worked Very hard to uh lower taxes increase Economic growth and were very frugal uh Gladstone as prime minister would reuse
All the message boxes uh as a way of Saving money which is partly symbolic And partly real uh and so I I had I Approached this whole issue of the Budget from the standpoint and I helped Write the our first budget of Hope and Opportunity when I was a freshman in 1979 as an alternative to Democrats and We were making a couple of arguments one Is that a lower tax system creates a lot More jobs that those extra jobs create a Lot more revenue for the government Because you have more people at work Earning more money more people getting Profits earning more money Second that the best social policy as Ronald Reagan said was a job and Therefore having a robust economy was a Major goal and that in the long run you Could have much lower interest rates And much greater Capital available to be Invested if you had a balanced budget uh And that we were very anti-inflation and Very much for lower interest rates Because we wanted to have a very robust Private sector that was rapidly creating New job new technologies new jobs New Opportunities and if you think back to That period it was at the very beginning Of the explosion of the internet of cell Phones of a whole range of Technologies So we were very interested in Accelerating technological change and That’s part of why we emphasized a
Dramatic lowering of the capital gains Tax because we wanted to make it easy to Liberate Capital to move to New Companies and New Opportunities and new Ideas ironically when we balance the Budget for four straight years Alan Greenspan was chairman of the Federal Reserve and actually reported publicly In a congressional hearing that they had A working group trying to figure out That the projection was in 2009 we would Pay off the federal debt And they weren’t sure how they were Going to technically manage the money Supply if they had no U.S debt uh it was It was a situation we had not seen since 1837 and they were and nobody predicted I mean nobody predicted we’d be a Majority in 94. nobody predicted we Could balance the budget in four years Uh and then keep it balanced and it was It was really interesting uh but but Part of the key to the balanced budget Was it forced you to make choices and it Forced you to modernize the system So you couldn’t afford this you know When when you’re willing to run deficits Everything sloppy becomes acceptable Because after all it’s all just money And nobody cares and so you end up with Huge levels of corruption uh it’s an Estimated uh 20 billion dollars in theft In the California unemployment Compensation last show just by itself uh
You end up with huge volumes of waste The Pentagon is an embarrassment it is So bureaucratic and so wasteful uh you End up with uh all sorts of sloppy Projects because politicians say look uh Since the budget’s going to be in Deficit anyway why can’t I have my half Billion dollars And you have no you have no yardstick There’s no there’s no way to control the System and so we wanted to establish a Genuinely controlled government that had To constantly improve itself uh and uh I Had been a student of both Edwards Deming uh the father of the quality Movement and Peter Drucker the the best Management writer of the 20th century so I really brought a very management Intense approach uh to thinking about The federal government and I wanted the Pressure of the balanced budget to force Us into the kind of reforms we needed When were the projections being made That the debt would be paid off by 2009 1999 and 2000. Right right so that was at the end of The internet boom that was a remarkable Decade in the 1990s of America of American economics expansion exactly What we had predicted we said you’re Going to get dramatically more growth That will produce revenue and if you Control spending for example welfare Reform led to such a dramatic drop in
The number of people taking money from The government And those people now working and paying Money as taxpayers that you take the Both sides of that equation your the Government’s paying out less and it’s Getting in more so for almost every State and almost every state welfare Reform was a huge advantage to their Fiscal budget So why did the balanced budget vote fail I know it was only by one vote why were People opposed to it you you mentioned a Little earlier about uh the Democrat Objection to work I look first of all There are people who like big government I mean look look at the Biden Administration look at Bernie Sanders I Mean they genuinely sincerely like big Government uh second Um there were people who didn’t want to Get in a straight jacket they were Thinking oh my God what if we get into a Crisis and now we’re constrained well my View I mean first of all you always have An escape valve so if you go to war or If there’s a gigantic emergency uh you Can respond to it but as a general Principle in the absence of war and Emergency I think having a balanced Budget requirements good but there were People who simply wanted to avoid that Kind of control okay so now given that Things worked so well on the economic
And the social front in the 1990s I Lived in the United States during the 1990s and it was it was quite a Remarkable boom period very very Optimistic and and maybe a period unlike Any that has been since particularly now Given the massive success of that Program Why did Republicans and Democrats alike Relapse in the aftermath Because we went right back to huge Deficits and a growing and and a Spiraling debt Even with that object lesson so why did People fail to learn and why more Particularly was that also true of Republican administrations well I look I Don’t think either George H.W bush or George W bush had a clue About reaganism and about modern Conservatism I think they were just Managers and they managed the system as It existed I mean when George W bush Announced he was going to work with Teddy Kennedy on education reform You knew it was an absurdity maintenance Kennedy was the chief leader for the Teachers unions there wasn’t going to be Any education reform they were just Going to spend a lot more money and Accomplish nothing And I think that there’s a Wing of the Republican party uh which which is a Managerial wing uh it likes things to be
Tidy it doesn’t like fights well if You’re going to actually control the Government It is a struggle because the government Doesn’t want to be controlled So if you’re going to actually for Example examine how we managed to build The F-35 as a bad airplane at such Enormous cost you’re going to have every Lobbyist who helped build the plane Petitioning the Congress to avoid the Investigation Uh and so you you end up in a situation I I once said that that the Future Has Publicist but the past has prison guards And those prison guards are mostly Lobbyists and they do everything they Can to stop the future I’ll give you an Example I’ve done a lot of stuff I found At the Center for Health transformation Done a lot of work on health reform So somebody built a computer model That could evaluate your eyes And could we currently have a system Where every year you have to get your Eyes checked if you need for example a Prescription for contact lenses Well the recommendation actually Technically is you ought to get your Eyes examined every other year but of Course if you’re an optometrist or an Ophthalmologist you like a provision That requires annually because that Doubles the income so this company comes
Along and actually has figured out you Can you can have a home application Using your laptop or your iPad And it is literally technically as good As going in so one year you’d go in and The other year you’d give it to yourself In state after state The optometrist and the ophthalmologist Lobbied to get the state to Outlaw the New technology In order to protect their ability now This is something that Adam Smith wrote About in 1776 in The Wealth of Nations That any Gathering of businessmen is a Conspiracy against the consumer And so all of these interest groups like A sloppy Uh influence written bureaucratic and Political structure and they don’t Particularly want a lean aggressive Competitive environment Yeah you said that okay so you you Talked about this managerial tendency But also the proclivity let’s say to shy Away from a fight the other thing that I See happening on the conservative front I would say is that There the left is capable of offering Young people something approximating You might call it a utopian vision And so there’s a the psychologist Jean Piaget talked about a late stage Incognitive cognitive development among Young people was the latest in his
Stages in the stages that he laid out in His stage Theory developmental account Of of of human uh let’s say cognitive Progress he called the late adolescent Stage Messianic he believed that that Was a time and it wasn’t the case for All young people but for many where Moving from their group affiliation say Their peer group to full Independence Required something like the Um abiding by a set of universal Principles and so there’s a search for Universal principles that can be It can be a guideline for life and that Would be part of high-end enculturation And I think the left has been Particularly good in capitalizing on That by making the case for example that If you’re concerned about climate change Then you’re serving the long-term best Long-term interests of the planet that You’re engaged in some Noble goal that’s Outside of yourself and conservatives Have been I would say spectacularly bad At offering that sort of alternative to Young people a vision and I I think if You look at what predicts Conservative political belief Temperamentally compared to Liberal or left political belief the Biggest predictor is creativity is the Trait openness and so open people tend To be more liberal in their political Preoccupations and open people are
Actually more Visionary in the technical Sense they’re more imaginative and And then you might combine that with the Fact that conservatives tend to stand For Traditional Values and it’s not that Easy to articulate a vision that’s based On Traditional Values because a vision Tends to be future oriented and so one Of the things that strikes me about your Contract with America and and the work Reagan did and the work that Thatcher Did was that it was Visionary in some Real sense and then that seemed to Evaporate in the aftermath of that era And hasn’t been replaced by anything on The conservative side since and I’ve Spoken to conservatives all over the World and to Centrist liberals as well And the degree to which they’re starving For a forward-looking vision can hardly Be overestimated So You manage this and what what made your Era different and and the people that You worked with and why were you able to Um communicate it in a manner that was Effective enough to have it adopted by Such a wide swath of people you know Um Without being presumptuous You could make an argument That the three most disruptive Republicans of modern times Uh were Reagan Trump and me
Uh and that all three of us are outside The norm For the Republican Party Uh the Republican the Republican Party Norm uh is to raise a lot of money Hire really good staff Hope somebody near you is thinking Uh and actually Almost deride Uh the idea Of visionary language and all that Fancify stuff uh this is this is a this This is by the way in enormous problem In the American Military There was a point there was a point Around 2004 or five where John Petraeus Called me from Iraq And he said I really had to get to know A guy named noggle and AGL who was at That time an Army Major and who had Written a brilliant book called eating Soup with a knife which is actually a Phrase from Lawrence of Arabia who said That fighting a guerrilla war is like Eating soup with a knife it’s very very Difficult So I read naugle’s book I called noggle And talked to him and the book is a Scathing On ending uh Example of the Army’s absolute inability To think in Vietnam I mean it’s just astonishing how bad the US Army’s thought processes were in
Vietnam And I called Nago and I said hasn’t this Really hurt your career and he said no Nobody in the Army reads aha well you Know I did some work with the U.S Naval Academy in in Maryland and uh we were Looking at personality factors that Predict military ranking and to some Degree academic success and it was Pretty clear from that investigation That General cognitive ability was a Predictor like it is for most activities That are complex but the next most Powerful predictor and this isn’t that Surprising was trait conscientiousness And that’s basically orderliness and Industriousness Certainly openness which is the Creativity Dimension predicted not at All now it also doesn’t predict standard University grades by the way you were Talking a little bit earlier about the Managerial proclivity of the run of the Mill Republican and also about the fact That you and Trump and Reagan were all Outsiders It’s it seems to me that in Manager managed bureaucracies That openness is a detriment to progress From the bottom up is when you’re in the Bottom ranks what really predicts your Success is conscientiousness dutifulness The ability to run out an algorithm That’s already pre-established and if
You’re open and creative at the bottom Rungs of an organization like that all You’re going to do is cause trouble now The problem with that is that as people Progress through the ranks all the People who are creative get winnowed out They might be absolutely vital At the highest levels of organizations But their tremendous amount of trouble At the bottom and so and that combined With that intrinsic skepticism that you Described Um among the let’s say run-of-the-mill Republican Um acolytes Means that vision and ideas are in very Short supply It’s a very difficult thing to to to Overcome because as I said the Visionary Types I mean this is this great moment In the 19th century where Um The Peel decides That he cannot refute the argument of The people who want to change the Corn Laws and allow the price of corn to drop Dramatically to feed the industrial Working class and he uh in the middle of The debate he turns to his deputy and Says you have to answer this I can’t I Think they’re right peel then splits The conservative party because the Conservative party base is farmers who
Are growing wheat who which was what They meant by corn who really wanted These tariffs to protect their price So peel takes with him all of the great Bright members of the conservative Government uh and and this is why Gladstone ends up as a liberal The only person left Who is articulate Is a half Jew Who had been considered a fop which was A term of derision who had worn velvet Coats had toured Europe with his Mistress and her husband and had written Novels Now in the absence of Peel Splitting the conservative party This really would never have emerged And yet he was the only articulate Person on the floor of the House of Commons who could defend the Conservatives And as a result all of these wheat Farmers who would normally have Disdained him Decided he was their leader Now you only need a handful of Visionaries we didn’t need seven Reagans You know one Reagan was enough the Tragedy was Reagan picked a managerial Personality from the anti-reagan wing of The party to be vice president And that’s how you end up with George H.W bush who never understood reaganism
Promptly broke his word about raising Taxes and had no notion of the degree to Which Reagan had fused together social Conservatives and economic conservatives And nationalist anti-soviet Conservatives Uh then when Bush leaves and frankly am I standing up to Bush on tax increases Was a key moment in creating The Credibility that led to the success of 94 because I proved to the average Republican Grassroots person there was Somebody there who actually cared enough To fight And we actually had more votes in the House Republican conference than bushed It uh and at that point you would the Dye was cast for the future uh but in The process I ultimately infuriated the Bush wing of the party Uh and as soon as they could get away From what I had and basically what I was Doing was reaganism So as soon as they could get away from What I was doing they reverted to the Norm An enormous frankly a pretty dull Managerial party uh that this doesn’t Have any sense of what you know uh H.L Menken once wrote of the Harding Administration that it was like an army Of ants crossing the desert which When It Came Upon an idea wondered what it Was and trampled it to death trying to
Study it and then resumed its march Across the desert well that does that Described a large wing of the Republican Party now the difference is on the left You have lots of vision and fanaticism But they tend to be out of touch with Reality I I tell people the reason the Left can’t deal with violence whether It’s criminals terrorists or Russia is That they saw The Lion King movie and Thought it was a documentary and they Think that lions and zebras actually Sing and dance together and we cannot Convince them that lions eat zebras so While they have a vision it’s in it’s Insane I’m actually working on a paper That there are two wings of the modern Democratic party a weird wing and an Insane wing Yeah yeah well I I mean that that does Seem to be Um that that Paradox that you just Described with the Visionary Democrats Who are out of touch with reality and The managerial uh Republicans who are Out of touch with vision does seem to be A logical consequence of the of what Would you say the excessive control that People at different temperamental Extremes might have of both parties Because the stereotypical personality Who’s going to lean to the left On the pathological side is someone Who’s extraordinarily Visionary but
Completely impractical and then on the Right you’re going to have someone who’s So practical that they can’t shift Direction when it’s necessary And I would say those are the those are Stable States in some sense on both Sides and you talked about Outsiders Like like Reagan and and yourself and And you put Trump in that category too Those are people who come along I Suppose now and then and shake up the Republican party why would you put Trump In the same Categorical domain in that sense as as Reagan and yourself because you had Actually a pretty coherent vision uh he Really did want to make America great Again he really did believe in a a Pretty sophisticated America First Foreign policy uh he was really prepared To take on the bureaucracies and shake Them up I mean the part of what defines Uh the the entire uh process with Donald Trump is that the establishment whether It’s the bureaucracy uh or it’s the news Media uh or it’s the the FBI or it’s the Billionaire Elites to New York they all Understood that he was their mortal Enemy that uh that if they didn’t go After him every single day and every Single way That he would destroy their world Uh and that’s what he was doing I mean There’s no question in my mind he was
Waging War on a corrupt establishment uh And the establishment was fighting back I mean I think he was the most Disruptive person since Andrew Jackson In terms of actually taking the Establishment head on Uh and being prepared to uh violate all Of its norms and I guess I’m curious too I haven’t been able to figure out for a Very long time why conservatives have Been unable to be attractive to Minorities especially immigrants because By and large immigrants to Canada and The US are much more conservative than The population itself and so why do you Think the Republicans have been Historically unable to make the Connection with minority voters is it The policy on immigration do you think Or the uh the notion that they’re a Status quo party Well I think first of all that the uh Historically they were the status quo Party and I think that immigrants are Basically told you’re supposed to be a Liberal Democrat uh what’s happened is Uh as liberal Democrat has turned into Radical Democrat uh they’ve said that’s Not me Uh and I think that you’re seeing this Has been a gradual steady drift in the Right direction uh and I think you’re Seeing uh I think Bush actually got up To 44 percent of the Latino vote in
2004. uh and uh then we backslid for a Little while and now we’re back again uh And I I suspect that this year uh and uh In 2024 uh we’ll actually carry a Majority of Latinos and from the Standpoint of the Democrats that’s the Beginning of the end uh if they lose if They lose working class whites and they Lose Latinos they can’t be competitive It’s so interesting to see too isn’t it That as the Democrats beat the Oppression drama and claim to be Standing up for the victimized in this Remarkably moral manner that they’re in Fact alienating exactly the people that They claim to support first of all the Working class because they did a Cataclysmic job of alienating the Working class especially especially in The Clinton campaign it was something Stunning to watch and now exactly the Same thing is happening on the minority Front and so the very people whose whose Tender Mercies are supposed to be being Targeted by this victimization narrative Are the people who as soon as they Understand it do everything they Possibly can to reject it but but I Think that’s happening in part because Among the Uh graduate school educated Elites You’re you’re really dealing with a Secular religion uh rather than a Political movement and therefore you
Have all of the Um fervor and intensity and blindness of A religious movement uh so uh they have To assume that these other people are Just wrong uh they they can’t hear them Because this the message is being sent To them uh by minorities and by working Class whites are messages which are Heresy given their secular religion uh And I think that that’s you know that’s At the heart of this that’s that’s why You kind of something like Bill Gates Say recently that it’s really good we Have these really high prices uh for for Fossil fuels because that’s really going To lead people uh to understand how Important greenism is well you know if You’re a family that that’s going to Have an electric blackout this winter or You’re somebody who can’t afford to buy Heating oil you somehow think a Billionaire telling you how good it is For you to be in pain it’s probably Pretty stupid yeah well you know the Deputy Prime Minister in Canada Christia Freeland said exactly the same thing About high gas prices in Canada at the Pump it’s like it’s good for people to Pay a little bit more when they’re Filling up their car because it helps Them understand just how serious the Climate crisis is now you describe this As a secular religious movement Um on the left what do you think the
Elements of that secular religious Movement are and I’m going to put Another codisil on that question too you Know so there’s famous gospel dictum Obviously that you render are unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God What is gods and one question that Arises as a consequence of that is that Is what happens if you don’t Render unto God what is God’s and it looks to me Like what happens is that the sacred Collapses into the political Such that the political becomes sacred For those who are a religious It’s inevitable and I was I mean I’m Sorry I’ve been thinking about this from A psychological perspective you know so If you think about If you imagine that we have a hierarchy Of conception Such that some things we perceive and Conceive of are shallow and other things Are deep and the Deep things are those Upon which many ideas are are dependent So constitutional axioms for example in That manner would be deep and this Self-evident presuppositions upon which The Constitutional axioms are predicated Would even be deeper The deeper down you go the more it Becomes religious in some real sense And there’s no getting away from depth In that manner because without that Hierarchy of depth you have a kind of
Incoherence at best and so there’s no Getting away from the religious if you Think about it technically in that Manner and then if you don’t have a Religious story or a religious substrate Then it seems to me that what happens is The political starts to become the Substitute for that depth and then we Get into a situation where we can’t even Talk about political things anymore Because it becomes taboo and that seems To be part of this secularized religion That’s part of what it’s part of woke Activism it’s part of the insistence That human beings are a cancer on the Planet and destroying it it’s part of This this insane insistence on climate Remediation before everything else Including providing food and shelter and Energy to the poor And that seems to be what’s being Rejected on Moss by the by the working Class and also now increasingly by Minority voters Regular has a very nice formula he says Big God small government big government Small God Uh and in a way when I described oh yes I haven’t heard him yeah when I Described big government socialism uh in My most recent book I was trying to get At this notion Um What you have in some ways is the
Ferocity Of the Reformation Uh you have the the kind of attitude Which was captured in a man for all Seasons where uh you where the Son-in-laws ask you know would you knock Down a law to get the devil and he says Well of course and he said and then Would you knock down the next law and Then when you finally end up uh having Driven the devil all the way to Wales And he turns what is going to stand Between you and him now that you’ve Knocked down all the laws and I think What you have on the left is a is a the Ferocity of the Reformation the ferocity Of the French Revolution at its peak Calista and I visited uh the cemetery in Paris where the Marquis De Lafayette is Buried uh and uh it was a cemetery uh he Personally was not harmed by the Revolution but his wife’s relatives were All Aristocrats and they were all Guillotined and they were buried in that Cemetery and so she asked that he and She be buried there it’s also the Cemetery in which the Catholic nuns Uh were buried who had gone singing To the guillotine because they refused To give up Christ and they were Therefore had to be guilted Um it’s the ferocity of leninism uh Which annihilated much of the social Structure of Zara’s Russia it’s the
Ferocity of maoism which annihilated Much of the structure the Confucian Structure of China well that ferocity uh Is what leads people to say that we Ought to have transgenderism for Three-year-olds we ought to make sure That we have a black dormitories in the Name of anti-racism that we ought to Make sure that white males don’t get Hired for anything because they’re They’re clearly the source of all of our Problems that we ought to condemn Christopher Columbus for having Discovered the new world uh because Somehow he eliminated the purity of Native Americans which requires a Stunningly a historical understanding of Native Americans Um all of this is is a is a modern Religion and I think has to be dealt With you know that that’s why I’m Working on this paper on the Democratic Party’s two wings as weird and insane The weird Wing is sort of in touch with Reality but weird uh the insane Wing is Totally out of touch with the real world And is drifting off into a never-never Land uh in which it is quite prepared to Kill people like you and me if that’s The cost of getting to Nirvana yeah well This is the thing that that strikes me I Was just in Europe for several months Touring through the UK and and and Through Holland and and Finland and
Germany and Jerusalem all sorts of Places Um it was very interesting to be in Berlin because of course the Germans as Well as as the people in the UK it looks Like they’re going to be in for an Unbelievably harsh winter in their Estimates in the UK that up to 40 Percent of small businesses now face the Risk of bankruptcy and even the guardian That horrible left-wing reg published a An article about two two weeks ago which Was actually a pretty good article Things considered pointing out that Because of the climate of the UK that if People aren’t able to heat their houses Up to a reasonable temperature which Might be the temperature that drives out Damp that the houses start to develop Black mold of course black mold destroys Houses Structurally but worse than that it Produces Airborne toxins that damage the Respiratory systems of particularly of Children and so the guardian pointed out That one of the unintended consequences Let’s say of the energy crisis is that Perhaps millions of of British children Are going to develop permanent Respiratory problems as well as Compromising the structural Integrity of A good chunk of the U.S or of the UK Real estate market and all of that Insanity on the energy front appears to
Me to be driven and the conservatives Are responsible for this in large part By these appallingly uh moralistic say Net Zero policies that have as one of Their immediate Consequences the Um the impoverishment of those who are Already struggling and so it looks to me That the left is perfectly willing to Sacrifice the poor Which are hypothetically the people that They are standing for in order to well Let’s say to not save the planet we’re Going to get the best they’re going to Get the worst of Both Worlds say we’re Going to throw a couple of billion People into poverty including a bunch of People in Europe we’re going to make the Environmental crisis such as it is much Much worse And we’re going to make the Environmental crisis much much worse by Doing so and so this is this is this is A stunning set of Affairs as far as I’m Concerned and I can’t understand for Example why people like Boris Johnson in The UK marched so forthrightly into the Maw with these idiot Net Zero policies With no evidence whatsoever that the Crisis that they were designed to Prohibit or to to forestall actually Existed and at the expense of Conservative principles and at the Expense of the poor it’s like what’s
Going on in the conservative side there I mean you know the UK government at the Moment is imploding mostly under the Weight of the aftermath of these crazy Net Zero policies and the economic Havoc They’re reeking So why do you think the conservatives There have abandoned their principles to Such a stunning degree and are following This crazy left-wing utopian scheme I Think the combination of the Applause of The media and the Applause of the elites Going to the right cocktail party to be Surrounded by people who packed you on The back and tell you what a heroic Figure you are uh I always you know I Try to tell people that you can put eggs In a freezer And they will get hard But that doesn’t mean they’re boiled Eggs And if I can’t get you to understand That to get a boiled egg you have to put It in hot water Then I can’t deal with you because You’re crazy That’s not an ideological problem it’s An insanity it’s a mental health problem And what you have is a worldwide Elite Sort of the Davos generation of people Who are suffering mental illness And if you just understand this is this Is a extraordinary it’s like the Flagellante in the Middle Ages who went
Around from City to City beating Themselves on their back with whips in Order to atone for their sins Uh you know it was a very widespread Movement for a very brief period and Then people realized it was really Stupid Uh what you have now is the the ultimate Catharsis of the insanity for example of Thinking that a teenager from Sweden is Somehow with no real knowledge of Science no real understanding of history And no real thoughts to consequence Somehow going to be the the fact that She’s now blessed keeping open the German nuclear power plants and that That somehow has meaning Tells you how truly sick the system is Yeah well I I’ve thought for 15 years That we were living in the in the uh Fantasy of a delusional 13 year old girl And that was long before Greta thundberg Hit the press and to see world leaders Kowtow to her as if she’s an oracle is Something quite stunning to behold There’s something truly archetypal about That that worship of of something like Oracular feminine innocence it’s it’s Something like that and it really is it Really is a form of delusional Insanity So it’s always been fascinating to me You know when Churchill Um goes on the umderman campaign in 1898. he writes a book about the river
War which is a my wife actually got me An original copy which is one of my real Treasures And he Praises Kitchener thinking that This will lead General Kitchener to be Pleased with Churchill Well kitchener’s reaction was who in the Hell is some young lieutenant To render any judgment on my generalship He doesn’t know enough to render Judgment and even if it’s positive Judgment it is stupid for him to have Rendered it now this was a great shock To Churchill who thought that somehow Writing well of Kitchener would improve His standing only to discover that in Fact uh Kitchener did not think it was Appropriate for him to render judgment Because he didn’t have any judgment as a Lieutenant and and that’s my reaction We’ve been through two generations In which parents have thought that Teenagers should like them uh and and Have reshaped their policies there’s a Great line Um that uh Dr Ben Carson the first time I heard him speak uh and he spoke at a Prayer breakfast now he was marvelous uh He got up as you know he’s African-American uh and he got up and he Started by describing a series of things About your brain And he stopped and he said no nobody in This audience understands anything I
Just said Because you have not studied to be a Neurosurgeon And it’s a function of learned knowledge And then he started talking about how he Got there and he said his mother was a Single mother And she was Raising he and his brother And she said to them if you don’t both Get A’s Straight A’s The television goes up in the closet Until the next grading period And he says people will say to him how How could your mother have done that and He said well you know she thought she Was the parent And we went through the two generations Now where the parents thought that they Needed the approval of their children It’s led us to fentanyl it’s led us to Uh we have an intern uh at again with 360 who’s working on a really Interesting question given that we lost 55 000 people in the Vietnam War over Eight years And we have a wall that’s a little over 500 feet long if you had a wall for the Last decade of drug overdoses next to The wall for Vietnam how long would it Be it turns out it’s about 1.1 miles That’s how many that’s how many Americans we’ve lost to drugs in a Decade
Without anybody having gotten enraged Anybody having said enough of this Anybody having come down for a ruthless Intense anti-drug policy we’ve lost over A million people In a decade so on on the elite side Let’s say on the left you’re you’re Characterizing the typical adherent of The woke Enterprise on the left as Highly educated in the in the technical Sense Products of higher education on the Liberal arts front or what passes for it Now And so that is a form of intellectual Privilege and you might say that along With that privileged position comes a Fair bit of existential guilt which is Something like I have all this privilege But I really haven’t earned it which is Of course the accusation that the Radical left Doles out in no small Amount continually with regard to Western culture as a whole but you could Say it really does typify the typical Liberal art elite type who’s then guilty For that unearned privilege and is Driven to atone in some real sense and Maybe that’s because as far as I can Tell that all that privilege That is acquired Through what passes for Education isn’t Being put to the proper higher order Purpose and so is accompanied by a
Tremendous amount of guilt and that’s Part of the religious issue here so that The guilt is looking for expiation Constantly Thomas Wolfe’s essay on Radical chic Taking apart a cocktail party at Leonard Bernstein’s Penthouse which was raising Money for the poor in which a wolf Focuses in on the uh Filipina Maids who Are serving the champagne to the rich People who are there out of no bless Oblige is one of the most devastating Insights and and this of course was Written in the 70s but what you’ve had Is the emergence of uh the world’s first Mass aristocracy People so well off they don’t have to do Anything they don’t have to know Anything so what they know is Trivial Shallow and has no relationship to Wisdom uh and they uh in a sense it’s The perfect postmodern world it’s a World in which no fact matters no taste Matters there is no standard and you can Pretend to be something by having read Three totally irrelevant books and seen Five totally irrelevant movies uh and Therefore you’re clever uh and Cleverness has replaced wisdom and uh You of course are superior to all of These people you know one of the reasons That the elites dislike Trump so much is The Trump talks like a blue-collar Worker
Uh I I always shall be able to there’s a Movie that Mark Wahlberg is in about the Uh guy in Philadelphia who tried out for The Eagles and ended up being accepted Actually played for three or four years With the Eagles and if you see the movie Uh the opening scenes are in a South Florida South Philadelphia Bar And they talk exactly like Donald Trump Uh and if you are a Yale Princeton Harvard elitist and and there’s a Terrific book by Charlie Murray called Coming apart in which he goes through And analyzes by ZIP code And says that people from Elite Universities marry people from Elite Universities and live in ZIP codes with People from Elite universities and I Used to tell reporters in in 2016. the Reason you don’t understand Trump is That The Apprentice was not on PBS Shortly after Downton Abbey And therefore you never saw it and you And you had no idea that this guy had Done television for 13 years Uh and of course to have got to have Actually watched The Apprentice if you Were working for the post of the times Would have been to risk your status uh Because as a snob you couldn’t watch That kind of uh so-called reality TV uh And I think that’s that’s a significant Part of where we are uh the the Uh the intellectual left the dominant
Wing of the Democratic Party has to Believe in nonsense because it has it’s What it believes in And So It Goes Around prattling nonsense uh you know Releasing murderers is a good policy Um having uh uh no bail is really clever Uh and then you’re shocked to discover That when you released murderers you Send a signal that being violent’s okay Uh and then you find out that the Average person doesn’t think it’s very Clever to be mugged raped or attacked or Carjacked by people you let back out on The street Uh and that’s part of the Great crisis Of American society today to to say that Uh the entire historic tradition of male And female the entire Story coming out Of Genesis of God creating man and then Creating women the entire process Biologically which seems to be Relatively common as it relates to human Beings for several hundred thousand or Million years uh is actually phony and You know and you get to reinvent Yourself So you have replaced God and instead of Trying to accommodate God’s will you Will now reshape yourself and be who you Want to be uh and that will somehow make You happy even if it makes you miserable Yeah well God’s uh God’s self-active self-naming to Moses In the desert is something approximating
I am that I am or I will be what I will Be and it’s very difficult for me not to See a direct analogy Between that and the claim that identity Is subjectively defined I am that I am and that something like The attribution of omniscience and Omnipresence and omnipotence to the Subjective self and it’s even worse than That in some sense because the Subjective self there that’s being Elevated which is something like what I Feel I am seems to me to be technically Indistinguishable from whim So because you could imagine that you Could regard yourself properly in a Selfish sense and by properly I mean You would regard yourself as an entity That actually propagates itself across Time and so you’re bound by fealty to Yourself not to do spectacularly stupid Things in the present even though they Might feel good if they would compromise You tomorrow or next week or next month Or next year right you have to view Yourself as an iterating game and this Notion that identity is somehow Subjectively defined and that that Subjectivity can be pinned down to the Moment couldn’t possibly be a claim That’s more Preposterous and immature Now I told the senate in Canada when Canada passed bill c-16 which was the Pronoun law that every idiot country in
The world seems to be jumping on now and Passing that the consequence of Confusing people about the difference Between men and women would be the Production of a psychogenic epidemic Because I knew I knew that young Adolescent girls in particular are prone To well we’ve seen like three epidemics In my lifetime bulimia anorexia and Cutting and it was always adolescent Girls and I think there’s psychological Reason for assuming that the distinction Between male and female is the most Basic cognitive category it’s the Deepest cognitive category it’s the most Profound might be the most sacred in That sense and that if you throw Uncertainty into that You imagine that there’s a hierarchy of Of psychological instability And there are people who are barely Clinging to the edge and there’s lots of Them just like they cling economically If you add uncertainty into the Conceptual hierarchy you make marginal People you drop marginal people into the Realm of insanity and so I felt that for Every one trans child that we Hypothetically saved we’d probably do Them a thousand and that seems to have Played itself out with near perfect Accuracy over the last six years and There is some unbelievable narcissism And self-aggrandizement in that
Proposition that you can Define your Identity subjectively by whim at any Moment and that everyone else has to Abide by that as if it’s Incontrovertible fact well you know I Mean first of all you get you get to Shift Who You Are Uh and that’s that whole process of your Definition of three may be different Than your definition at five which may Be different than your definition of Seven but we’re supposed to take you Seriously At this instant if that’s who you have Defined yourself as this evening or Today Um secondly I think uh it is it is at The heart of the Ten Commandments that You shall have no other God before me And what we’ve now said is oh no You are your own God Uh you are therefore you are therefore By definition in front of God because You get to redefine whatever you want to Redefine well once you get into that Kind of relativism You have everything begin to Disintegrate uh because there’s there is No framework of reference you can cling To it ironically there are 34 languages That have different uh declensions based On sex So you you have to ask yourself how in Spanish or French for example are you
Going to deal with a relativistic Multi-sex multi-gender environment when The language in fact Assumes to Yeah well it seems to have something to Do with this disintegration of the Intermediary hierarchy so one of the Things Carl Jung the psychoanalyst said Um back near the end of the second world War was that Well he said two things that were quite Striking one was that the biggest threat That was going to confront us in the Future would be something like Mass Psychological instability rather than Let’s say uh material want and privation Per se and he also pointed out that the Logical conclusion of the Protestant Revolution would be that everyone would Become their own church Right that was the degenerative tendency Because of the destruction of Intermediary Um intermediary hierarchical systems one Of the things conservatives can offer And I think this works out well on the Front of Sanity itself up front of Bolstering Sanity is there is a concept Among Humanistic psychologists in particular That the atomized self is the center of The world and that self-actualization is The Uh is the essence of Sanity but there’s
A more Sophisticated version of that I would Say stemming mostly from piageti and Thought that There isn’t any difference between Sanity and proper nesting inside a Hierarchical community so you can Imagine that well if your marriage is Really unhappy you’re not going to be Very sane And if your children are miserable and Misbehaving and your marriage is unhappy You’re even going to be less sane and That will also be true if your friends Have turned against you and you have no Position in the community with regard to A job or a career So it’s better to conceptualize identity And Sanity as the consequence of proper Nesting in a hierarchical social Structure so that you’re saying if you Have a marital partner who provides you With corrective feedback the two of you Have a good marriage and are saying if You are together jointly back to back in Relationship to your children who are Then stabilized because of your Stability now you’re nested inside a Stable family you can walk outside of That family into the community and you Can Orient yourself properly in Relationship to a job or career and that Also provides you with corrective Feedback from all your compatriots and
Your peers and that scales politically At the level of the city and the state And the country and so sanity and Identity then becomes the entire Hierarchy of hierarchical relationships And that’s another thing that Conservatives can offer as a vision as An antidote to this atomized liberalism That that results in the final analysis In self-aggrandizement to the point of Of claiming Divine attributes That’s how it looks to me anyways well That I think at times you are probably a Deeper thinker than I am I’m only a Politician So so let’s talk about Vision a bit on The conservative front so we have the Midterms coming up and hypothetically The house and the Senate are going to Split are going to flip now it isn’t Obvious to me that there are Visionaries Working effectively on the conservative Front the Republican front in the U.S And so what what do you see as the way Forward for the Republican party if it Was if it if it got its act together Let’s say and developed something Approximating a vision and do you see Any sources of that Vision emerging yeah Look I think there are a lot of Entrepreneurial personalities who are Each developing different approaches on Different topics different solutions uh
And I think what you’ll see is both in The House and Senate and and among Governorships we have we have a number Of Governors who are actually solving Problems and and developing a general Sense of a productive uh system uh but But I mean part of the challenge is I think if you’re a conservative you’re Trying to create a frame of reference or A framework within which people are able To improve their own lives So we’re not we’re not trying to set up Uh the the government which then decides For you what your vision is we’re trying To set up a system or structure in which You get to pursue the vision you believe In uh and we believe that that kind of Freedom uh is in fact really really Important and I think it’s interesting You know I think Lincoln in that sense May have been the the greatest Visionary Of of American conservatives because When he described government of the People by the people and for the people He’s really describing a very open-ended Concept uh he’s not describing any one Specific thing he’s describing Freedom Uh he he really believed that uh people Had the right to pursue happiness as Explained in our Declaration of Independence he had done it in his own Life had come out of a relatively real Poverty uh and risen by his own efforts And his own studies and I think he
Thought that the the job of government Was to create a framework within which People would go and work Lincoln would Be appalled at today’s massive number of People living in dependency so I think Uh the vision that we have to offer is One that says you know we want everybody To have an opportunity to get a good Education but and that’s a good example Uh Betsy DeVos the former Secretary of Education under Trump has come up with This idea of of uh education Freedom That it’s not just school choice but It’s also homeschooling it’s also Apprenticeship it is also online Learning that there are many many Different ways that people can learn and That is not just a 19th century Bureaucracy uh dominated by a teachers Union with uh various credentialing Requirements that are now totally Obsolete and I think that that kind that Sense that you’re going to see a number Of different people in different areas Who are offering specific breakthroughs Towards a more Dynamic a more open a More entrepreneurial American society And and frankly a much more Work-oriented American society uh which Is a historically was a key that Emphasis that you lay on work well in in The lectures that I’ve been doing Publicly around the world I have placed A fair amount of emphasis on
Responsibility and I think that your Emphasis on work and and my emphasis on Responsibility are likely the same thing I’ve been trying to point out to the People who are listening to my lectures That most of the meaning that sustains People through crises in life Is accrued as a consequence of adoption Of responsibility So if you have good social relations if You have a good marriage if you have Good relations with your children and Your friends and your and your Colleagues at work you have a good Social Community that’s all a Consequence of the sacrifices you make In relationship to those Um social interactions the amount you Give the amount you put forward the Responsibility that you take for the Integrity of those relationships and Then when the crisis comes as it will in Your life you’ll have that to sustain You when the going gets hard Hedonism Isn’t going to sustain you and your whim Isn’t going to sustain you but the Meaning you can derive through the Voluntary shouldering of responsibility That’s always there for you and it seems To me that that’s Akin in some sense to The emphasis that you lay on on on the Necessity of work does that seem Reasonable actually I think your formula Is pretty close I I would say that
Let me the center of my life has been Citizenship at least since uh August of 1958 and that citizenship involves a Sense of Uh responsibility and that Responsibility inherently involves work Uh that you you have if you’re Responsible for getting educated as you Know I mean real education requires work If you are trying to sustain Economically what you’re doing that Requires work uh I found in my own life Through several failures that have a Really sustainable relationship requires Work Being close to my two daughters requires Work uh so it’s it’s it’s a sense that There’s there’s sort of a two sides of The same coin if you will is it’s not Just work for work’s sake but it’s work In order to achieve something that fits Your value system uh and and I like that A relationship back to responsibility Whether it’s responsibility of the Society or to your family or to yourself Or to yourself well yeah so you know the I don’t think that there’s any real Difference between the concept of work And the concept of sacrifice you know I Used to ask my students many of whom Were children of first generation Immigrants what trying to elucidate the Concept of sacrifice I’d say to them What sacrifices did your parents make so
That you could attend University in Canada of course they had an instant Answer to that because they knew Perfectly well what their parents had Sacrificed and I don’t think there is Any difference between sacrifice and Work and in some sense speaking in Relationship to the biblical tradition Here is that you have to offer up Something that you value in the present To make peace with the future that Really is the core element of work and It’s the core element of sacrifice right If if you’re just doing what you want if You’re just gratifying every whim it’s Not work but it doesn’t work out very Well for the future What work seems to be is something like The continual sacrifice of at least some Element of the present to ensure Iterable stability across the long term And so because human beings are Self-conscious creatures and because we Can see the future we have to work we Have to integrate the present with the Future and that does seem to involve Work and that does seem to be the core Element of responsibility and I don’t See how that responsibility can be Shirked without catastrophe if it is Precisely that which defines our are Iterable stability both individually and Socially is something that conservatives Really have to offer young people you
Know what and I don’t think that the Conservatives generally speaking have Caught on to this is to point out to Young people that the sustaining meaning In your life will not be found in Hedonistic self-gratification it’s a Counterproductive strategy the Sustaining meaning in your life will be Found in the voluntary shouldering of as Much responsibility as possible you know Young people they get that as soon as You explain it to them they’re they Understand they understand immediately And are vastly relieved to hear it well It also takes you back to the point you Made earlier which is that people get to A point where they want a meaning larger Than themselves And that that’s part of this that that Ultimately uh you find a better life by Focusing Beyond yourself not by focusing Inside yourself well in that that inside Yourself is such a peculiar formulation Which I think is why the radicals insist So much on feeling because when I hear That as a psychologist I think well what Self do you mean and the rejoinder is Usually well that’s self-evidence like Well no actually it’s not because if You’re asking acting in your own best Interest All Things Considered you’re Not giving way to every momentary whim All that does is put you in the position Of a dependent two-year-old or a
Psychopath and none of that’s productive Even if you’re abiding by your own true Self in the higher sense then you’re Going to make sacrifices of your Momentary whims to your medium to Long-term stability and thriving and That’s exactly what happens when you Mature because two-year-olds have that Proclivity to be governed by whim but Nobody thinks the two-year-old should Rule the world well except maybe Two-year-olds well I think You know again you get back to some of The current fads which would suggest to You the two and three-year-olds can Actually make real decisions uh which I Think is the example of what I meant About being insane Um and any anybody who thinks that a Three-year-old or a five-year-old is is Prepared to make adult decisions is just Literally living in a world that I have No relationship to and I can’t Understand uh but I think there’s also You know it’s it Part of the challenge is that Historically Almost every society I know of is Successful has rights of Passage which Takes you through adolescence into Adulthood sometimes at a pretty early Age sometimes at 12 or 13. but it but It’s but it’s made very clear to you uh That you have been a child and the
Children are allowed to do a whole range Of things but that we don’t take what They did as children seriously Uh that there it’s not it’s not like You’re a small adult you’re a child And then you go through a right uh Whether you are in in almost every Culture I’m aware of this if it’s a Healthy culture it has some provision For you to emerge as an adult And to and and to now be self-aware that Uh you know that the things you once did As a child are no longer appropriate one Of the problems of the current system is That we treat the children as though They’re adults there’s no right of Passage and so they end up as 35 year Old members of Congress who are in fact Just big they’re just large adolescents Uh they don’t have any kind of sense of Maturity or responsibility or any sense Of uh the hierarchy of development uh And they and they live in a world of now I mean it’s a in a funny kind of way uh It’s it’s a it’s a remarkably Existential moment where everything is Now So what are you what are you hoping for On the leadership front on the Republican side over the next couple of Years or what do you think is going to Happen are there are there going to be Contenders in relationship to Trump or Is he the presumptive nominee and should
He be What would you hope for as we move Towards 2024 well I think I I think that he is The probable nominee but not the Presumptive nominee I think that uh Governor DeSantis if he Wants to can challenge him whether Whether DeSantis could beat him I don’t Know uh but I think certainly Governor DeSantis has the capacity uh and and is Doing an astonishing job as governor of Our third largest state Um I think that there are other Candidates who would like to be in that Mix uh and and I I always try to remind People if you went back to this exact Point In 2014 Um two weeks before the elect the Off-year election Nobody would even have said Trump’s name I mean so so you know and I think people Would have had a sense that Jeb Bush was Probably the front runner so to you know So so to try to look forward and and I Don’t know uh at this point in 2018 that People would have picked Joe Biden Uh I mean so so in my mind uh an amazing Number of things can happen Between now and the time we actually Pick a nominee uh I mean I mean Certainly Glenn Younkin uh the new Governor of Virginia has shown himself
To be a future star of the party I think There are other people around who are Serious potential contenders uh we’re Going we’re about to see Governor Brian Kemp of Georgia win a surprisingly big Victory Um I also think that there’s a whole new Generation coming up of people who are Running around the country and a whole Bunch of senators you know when one of The ground rules of the U.S Senate is That every Senator uh Combs the hair of A future president every morning and Looks in the mirror and thinks why and Thinks why not so you could easily have Six or seven or eight candidates from The Senate at least starting down the Road Um the uh So so I would say that Trump is Formidable uh and and probably would be Nominated but he’s not certain I think On the Democratic side uh if this Election goes as badly as I suspect it Will and if Biden continues to Decay and If Kamala continues to be as utterly Totally incompetent as she is uh I think You’ll clearly see a whole new field of Democrats and and part of the question Will be if they get beaten badly this Year you know what lesson do they think They learn I think uh the governor of California is probably is likely to run Uh Having learned nothing and we’ll try
To convince the rest of us that uh California in which uh San Francisco has Become a disaster uh and uh Los Angeles Has its largest population of homeless In the country but that somehow California is a model for the future Even as it loses businesses and and People who are leaving the state because They can’t stand it anymore so but but He’s got some he has so many resources That he almost has to run so what what What do you think that Would be most appropriate for Conservatives on the Visionary side Let’s say to be offering to young people As we move forward with the new house And the new Senate Freedom you talked about work freedom Freedom I think I think well because see Freedom leads to responsibility and work I just did a seminar with a bunch of People including Dennis Prager on the First half of exodus in Miami we’re Going to release that November 26th they And you you mentioned freedom and that’s What that’s what made it spring to mind So when God tells Moses to address the Pharaoh He tells them uh To let my people go And that’s a famous line they let my People go but that’s not the line Actually Interestingly enough and it’s repeated I
Believe it’s repeated nine times might Be ten times Just to make sure that the listener gets It the line is let my people go So that they may serve me in the Wilderness and what’s fascinating about That is that the vision of Freedom That’s put forward which is the spirit Let’s say that’s calling To the Israelites to emerge from their Slavery and to the tyrannical pharaoh to Release his tyrannical grip on them Isn’t The freedom of whim it’s the freedom to Pursue the proper goals To pursue the highest goals and so it’s It’s the freedom that comes with the Voluntary adoption of responsibility and Not the freedom that leads to a Nihilistic Hedonism right but but There’s a difference between Liberty and Liberty And I think you know I think that the The challenge is And this is I think what very difficult To have a serious public conversation About it although Dennis Prager does as Good a job as anybody Ultimately the health of the West Requires a profound Revival I mean ultimately God has to be at the Center of our freedom uh when we say in Our Declaration of Independence that you Are endowed by your creator
With certain unalienable rights if you Don’t think there’s a creator Then the whole rest of it makes no sense On the other hand If you believe that your rights come From God and your right includes the Right to pursue happiness which in the Sense of the 18th century Enlightenment Actually meant virtue and wisdom Happiness did not mean Hedonism Um then the pursuit I always try to make Two points to people The Pursuit of Happiness first of all is an active Phrase which gets us back to the work Ethic it doesn’t say You’re Gonna you Know it doesn’t say we’ll have happiness Stamps or we need a federal department Of happiness it says you have been Endowed by God with the right to pursue Happiness And second by that Grant God is also Imposed upon you the obligation that you Should pursue happiness again happiness In the sense of wisdom and virtue Um and all of that only makes sense if You understand that you are subordinate To a Supreme Being it’s it’s a little Bit like uh Alcoholics Anonymous I had a Good friend who had been very high up in The Reagan Administration and who was an Alcoholic and ultimately went to Alcoholics Anonymous found it to be Enormously helpful and uh Ultimately you get to a key step and you
Have you have to start by recognizing You have a problem and recognizing that You can’t solve the problem yourself But then you get to the key step you Have to recognize that there is a Supreme Being A higher power And so he found himself talking one day To a federal official and he was Explaining the impact of Alcoholics Anonymous and this federal official said You know if we could skip that one step We could fund it He said I don’t think you understand That’s the step that makes the rest of It work And I think in that sense all of us are Caught In an alcoholic’s Anonymous moment all Of us are weakened by the fact that we Don’t Live in a culture which makes it normal And obvious that your freedom is a Freedom within within uh God’s belief And God’s control it’s not a freedom Against God or a freedom in an atheistic World Because those are in fact impossible we Might conceptualize Freedom the way we Conceptualize playing a Sophisticated game Every game is ordered according to the Principles of the game the rules of the Game let’s say and the rules aren’t
Exactly walls and they’re not They are not Thou shalt not in some Sense they’re enabling principles and I Don’t see that there is any freedom Without the rules of a game I think There’s just chaos and Chaos that’s Liberty and freedom let’s say that’s the Chaos of whim there’s nothing about that That’s salutary there’s nothing about That that allows you to maintain Anything approximating sanity it has to Be ordered freedom and maybe that’s Something that Visionary conservatives Can offer to young people it’s the what Would you call it the attraction of Ordered freedom and maybe we’ll see some More of that happen in the upcoming Years that would be a lovely thing if uh If the proper Vision can be established And so I’d like to thank you very much Sir for spending the time talking to you It’s quite an honor you know you’ve You’ve been a name I’ve known for a very Long time I must say that when I was Young you were definitely not my most Favorite person I was under the sway of Socialist ideas when I was a kid really Yeah yeah yeah and so so uh that during The Reagan years let’s say but um Um it’s and it it’s quite it’s quite a Circumstance to be sitting here talking To you today and I appreciated it very Much as I mentioned earlier that uh I Really like your work I admire it we
Have a number of people in our team at Gingrich 360 who are huge fans who were Thrilled that we were going to have this Conversation and also I did want to Mention for our viewers that at Gingrich 360 we do have an internship uh for People who are bright and who are Willing to work hard and so I appreciate Your your I really like what you’re Doing and I really think it’s important And a significant contribution thank you Thank you very much if people out there Are young people who are listening are Looking for a signal opportunity then This internship program looks like that To me where are you located now we are In Arlington Virginia and in Naples Florida So we have opportunities in both places Okay and are you personally in in the in The Arlington area I’m in both places I’m actually talking to you today from Arlington I see I see well I would love To meet you the next time I come down to Washington that would be it would be Good to meet in person and good we’ll I’d like I agree I think I think you are A remarkable contributor to our time Well thank you sir Um I want to go behind the scenes with Dr Gingrich for half an hour and so any Of you who are inclined to Um join up with the daily wire plus Platform we’ll get access to that and
I’d like to thank you again Dr Gingrich For taking the time and uh we’ll get This up real soon and and hopefully We’ll be in further touch Hello everyone I would encourage you to Continue listening to my conversation With my guest on dailywireplus.com
