Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with entrepreneur, U.S. representative, and 2024 presidential candidate Dean Phillips. They discuss his now-suspended presidential campaign, the monolithic opposition he faced getting platformed, the reality of President Joe Biden’s age, the core issues facing America right now, and the comparative pathologies of Republicans and Democrats respectively.
Dean Phillips is an American businessman and congressman, serving as the U.S. representative of Minnesota’s 3rd District since 2019. Phillips has started and run several companies over the years (Such as Talenti Gelato) and served as CEO of his family’s liquor business, Phillips Distilling Co, for 12 years (2000-2012). Phillips ran as the only Democrat against Joe Biden in the 2024 election. On March 6th, 2024, he suspended his campaign.
This episode was recorded on March 13th, 2024
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(0:59) Coming up
(1:26) Intro
(3:32) The moment in 2016 that changed Dean Phillips’ life
(10:56) Practical concerns to replace Joe Biden as president
(16:22) American Dream Accounts: a proposition for investing in the next generation
(18:28) Hubert Humphrey, political heroes and the historic fight against anti-semitism
(25:24) Discussing the prolonged cultural impact of U.S. slavery
(34:19) The relative nature of oppression, equity versus equality
(39:51) The complexities surrounding the historic oppression of the Jews
(47:39) The biggest inhibitor to Phillips’ campaign, “no platform”
(53:04) The two party duopoly
(54:03) Why so many are taking a risk on Trump, temperament and approach
(56:45) The perverse incentives need to be exposed
(1:01:08) Why are people still supporting a “losing candidate” in Biden?
(1:07:08) Something changed when the parties realized they could monetize anger
(1:10:13) The strange classism levied against Trump, why he’s unscripted
(1:17:15) “CNN would not give me a town hall,” being blackballed by the establishment news
(1:21:20) What the legacy media could offer if they aimed upward
(1:28:41) The psychogenic epidemic the left ignores
(1:31:59) Where is the line for bodily autonomy and self harm?
(1:33:36) Censorship predominantly comes from the progressives, when does the left go to far?
(1:38:29) Gigantism is systemic and winning, but it doesn’t have to
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We wouldn't be arguing about whether There were women and men if things Didn't need to be retooled from the very Bottom that's my sense of the situation Now that is a critical conversation Whether the god-shaped hole gets filled By God exactly is something maybe for us To discuss on the shows you're going to Be joining me for the next nine evenings On my we who wrestle with God Tour and I Would like you to come armed with your Sharpest sword and hold nothing back You've asked me to do something Generally speaking I'm pretty good at Which is to be disagreeable and tried to Find holes and things I'm going to be Coming at it from a kind of first Principles uneducated but I hope Sufficiently intelligent perspective and I think you could offer to the audience A really critical response that's Thoughtful so that I can see if there's Still holes in what I've laid out Because I can't find any that's what We're going to explore I can't Wait the two-party system the duopoly if You will they're the ones that have set The rules Jordan in the United States You know we do not have competition Because the two parties have electively Cooperatively prevented it by setting The rules in all the 50 states and at The federal level forget what the Country might be asking for these are
Private institutions and they're making Decisions of extraordinary consequence Not just for the United States of America and for our neighbors to the North and South but for the entire World [Music] Hello everybody I'm talking today with Dean Phillips an American businessman And congressman who served as the Representative of Minnesota's Third District since 2019 I met Dean several Years ago I found him a very interesting Person he ran a very singular campaign When he first ran for congress uh one That was very positively inclined and he Struck me as an very intelligent and Perspicacious uh moderate on the Democrat side and so we've had a fair Bit of contact over the years recently And of particular relevance to this Podcast Dean ran for president on the Democrat side and I was very interested And he he dropped out of that race about A week and a half ago something like That and um he ran into monolithic Opposition and his and his campaign was Scuttled in a variety of complex manners And I think the reason for that is of Wide general interest um I think he Would have been a provided a very Credible alternative to the Aging Biden Um should have been highly acceptable to The Democratic Elite and and public as
Well and really got nowhere to speak of In his movings forward now that hasn't Hurt him personally because he's a very Resilient person and he has many of many Options at his disposal but what Happened to him does speak volumes about The state of political Affairs in the US More broadly and so we delve into that And uh what what what his experience Signifies for the understanding of the Political realm in general in the US and In the west and also um we investigate Too the comparative pathologies let's Say of the Democrat and the Republican Sides respectively so join us for that Well Dean it's been a long time that We've been plotting to get together to Talk publicly and so now we get to do it And it's going to be I presume somewhat Of a postmortem so to speak you recently Ran for president and I am very Interested to to know I think we should Start probably with a description of why You ran like what you thought the Problem was and what you hope to Accomplish and then we should segue from That into just exactly what happened and What you learned you know how you've Changed across that process I'm very Interested in hearing about that so Let's start with the what you what Problem you were trying to address or Set of problems when you decided to run Fill people in on your background and
Your decision yeah well I let me go Backwards before I go forwards and most Importantly thank you uh I wish the I Wish our country uh US Canada and the World would have more conversations like This one you know Jordan as you know my Life started differently than most uh Are aware I lost my father in the Vietnam War he grew up very poor in Minnesota could not afford college so he Earned an Roc scholarship afforded by The federal government to attend law School at the University of Minnesota uh Was sent to Vietnam just before I was Born and was killed in action in July of 1969 just a few days in fact after uh The US moon landing and when I was 6 Months old when he died my mother was 24 And widowed we had nowhere to go so we Lived with my great-grandparents in St Paul for 3 years and then Jordan I got Lucky uh my mom met and remarried a Wonderful man who adopted me into a Great family uh of business and Philanthropic success a lot of advice my Grandmother was the advice columnist Dear Abby and my aunt was Anne Landers And I got lucky and I share that because As I have this conversation with you so Much of my life was influenced by Good Fortune and recognizing that I don't Think it should take a stroke of good Luck or just being born in the right zip Code that dictates where one ends up and
That very much illuminated my life and Uh I had a great business uh career Building beler vodka and uh tente gelato Two wonderful Brands and I that brings Me to 2016 uh I was a father of two Daughters Daniela 18 Pia 16 uh I just Opened some coffee shops I love the idea Of hospitality and people Gathering I Think people and Humanity needs a lot More of that right now I thought that'd Be my next business chapter but I Watched that election night 2016 and I Was deeply disappointed and for the First time in my life uh it wasn't Political in nature it was the character I thought of the man who had won Donald Trump uh but I told my family that night Jordan as I always would he was duly Elected and we got to give him a chance But I woke up the next morning and the First thing I heard was my daughter Pia Who was 16 uh she was in her bedroom and She was crying and I sat at the foot of Her bed and remind you Pia had just Overcome Hotchkins Lymphoma a year Before uh and she's a gay woman I didn't Know that when she was a teenager but I Saw a fear in her eyes Jordan that Really instantly uh affected me Indelible and I sat at the breakfast Table that morning with both of my Daughters uh and promised them that I Would do something uh I had reached that Moment in my life where i' taken a lot
For granted I'd raised my daughters to Be participants not observers and I felt Compelled to uh to do something and I Decided to run for Congress I share that With you because you ask why I ran for President well it was because we have a Crisis of participation we have a Wonderful industry uh anger tainment I Might call it of people who uh make a Lot of money uh and do quite well uh by Creating division uh sharing fear and I Want to be a participant in the Resolution I want to be the antidote and I felt rather than complaining I should Do something and that's why I ran for Congress I was was the first Democrat to Win my district since 1958 got to Congress I as you know I Joined the problem solvers caucus Because there is no mechanism none in The US Congress that pushes people Together uh no mandate no intention Between the speaker and the uh minority Leader to develop an orientation program That forces human beings to get to know Each other to share their life stories And when I saw Donald Trump essentially Now returning to the White House because Of Biden's uh increasingly poor approval Numbers and his bad poll numbers uh the Absence of competition is destructive to Democracy in fact I would say Competition is the vitamin of democracy And just because we had an incumbent
President here in 2024 86% of the Country had determined that he was too Old to serve another term and I thought The least I could do the least I could Do is the same thing I did in 2016 which Is to demonstrate with my feet my Principles Which was to stand up and go against the Grain and actually upset my colleagues Uh to not wait in line to not be quiet And shush up and sit down but just the Opposite and I think we now have too Much of a culture uh both in North America and increasingly around the World of of people too often being Silenced and falling in line when they Should be standing up and being loud and That's what I did Jordan and I'm glad I Did it was a long shot there's almost no Chance whatsoever of an Insurgent like Me uh defeating an incumbent in a Nominating process like we have here in The states we have a political duopoly Both Democrats and Republicans that have Set the rules to prevent uh the very Competition that I in uh aspire to Create uh but I got to tell you it was The most beautiful experience of my life Jordan uh like any mission of principle It came with a lot of Joy a lot of pain But it reinvigorated my love for my Country my affection for human beings And I will say Jordan the most Compelling moment of my entire
Experience which lasted about 5 months Was walking up to a Donald Trump rally In Rochester New Hampshire saw a line of People standing outside in the freezing Cold there for hours and I walked up to Say hello uh and I spoke with probably 50 people that evening uh going to a Trump rally and every one of them Friendly hospitable thoughtful kind many Of them had voted for Barack Obama many Of them said that they had been fans of Bernie Sanders all of them treated me Respectfully I treated them respectfully And I have to tell you that was probably The moment I'll never forget and Restored and reinvigorated my belief That everybody everybody has decency in Them but we have created a dynamic now In which we are demeaning people we are Making them afraid we are antagonizing Each other and I needed that moment to Demonstrate to my own side of the aisle That the way to succeed is not through Confrontation but through invitation and You asked why I ran for president Jordan That's what I wanted to demonstrate that We need to extend invitations to one Another to get to know each other find Common Ground debate deliberate and Disagree without being disagreeable and I'm glad I did it because that was my Mission and um I would do it a thousand Times again despite how complicated and Difficult and the toll it took so you uh
Stated during your exposition of your Reasons for running that you were Concerned about Biden's the the concerns You expressed were fundamentally Practical I don't imagine that exhausts Your list of concerns but the Practical Concerns were um your belief that a Better candidate than Trump for President might be found and combined With the fact that Biden's age has Become a concern and his poll numbers Reflect some real uncertainty about his Viability as a candidate for the next Presidency were there other shortcomings Related to the Biden Administration that You felt that you might want to address On a policy on the policy side or did You feel in the main that his Administration was proceeding in the Right direction but that well let's we Could take apart what you felt was Inadequate about the B the bid Presidency a part you know around his Age let's say well let me start by Saying the quiet part out loud which is To be successful in American politics One must abide by his or her own party's Rules Uh by the platform if you get out of Line if you disagree if you take a Position that is the opposite of that of Your party uh it is not the path to Success and that is why you see the Overwhelming majority of members of
Congress and elected leaders in the US Uh knowingly violating their own Perspectives and principles in the Spirit of Self-preservation and I share that Because I think that's an important Dynamic for people to be aware of uh the Arching issue in this election in the United States is the number of people Democrats Republicans liberals Conservatives Libertarians Independents All feeling how in the world can the Most extraordinary democracy in the World be limited to two candidates like The ones that it looks like we'll be Having in November and that's not Opining on what I think of them I'm just Saying what people are saying every Single day all around this country how Are we so limited in a democracy that is Supposed to be cultivating nurturing and Promoting uh options and I watched on The right a very vibrant very vibrant GOP nominating contest uh that continued As of you know until last week when Nikki Haley dropped out but evening Debates and town halls and conversation And energy and I looked on my side of The aisle Jordan and we have Joe Biden Who is going to be handed the nomination A coronation of sorts so and my Misgivings were about the system my Misgivings were about a country that was Overwhelmingly saying that we want more
Options and I believe as I said earlier That absent competition democracy Ultimately dies now when it comes to Policy so my opinion by the way on Joe Biden is he's a good man I think he's a Man of integrity and decency and most Importantly empathy uh but he's an old Man I'm not going to deny that is he Incompetent no is he facing cognitive Decline I do not believe so at all is he Facing physical and communication Decline absolutely but that's what People see that's why they've concluded Uh that he was too old but from a policy Perspective you know I will say that I Think the southern border uh is a tragic Uh oversight of this Administration uh It's something that I saw when I first Visited the Border in 2019 again in 2020 Uh the foremost responsibility uh of an American leader is to uh keep our border Secure and and preserve National Security and clearly uh we have a human Crisis we have a national security Crisis and now we have a constitutional Crisis at our border and having been There twice it's one of the most Appalling things I've ever seen and is And must be uh the foremost priority uh Of an American leader that is certainly A point of difference uh fiscal Responsibility is is clearly something That I believe an American president has To take more seriously Donald Trump
Added $7 trillion uh to our national Debt Joe Biden will add probably six and Change uh it's irresponsible and as some Someone who comes from the business World I believe we have to manage our Fiscal house more responsibly uh had I Become president um and one day if I do I would have a bipartisan cabinet I Would employ zerob based budgeting I Would have a uh International consulting Firm assess every single federal agency To make recommendations on how we can Deliver Services better reduce Expenditures Outsource what we don't do Well uh I think we have to start looking At the executive branch here in America As our Founders intended which is to Execute the laws of the land not Necessarily be the chief policy maker But to ensure the Integrity uh of our Financial house to ensure the Integrity Of our borders to ensure the National Security of the country and I think the Executive branch has expanded far more Broadly uh than it should have uh I Believe that people are feeling uh the The challenges of chaos whether it's the Southern border or in cities and Neighborhoods around the country uh I Believe costs are are too high for most Amilies we're a country in which 60% are Living paycheck to paycheck 40% can't Afford a $400 repair people are afraid So when I judge President Biden there's
A lot of good he did I believe for America but I do believe there are some Opportunities and needs of Americans That have to be attended to uh I was Clear in my articulation of what some of Those deficiencies are and lastly I'll I'll present my foremost policy Proposition that I think we should Consider and I think other countries Should as well and I call call it American Dream accounts we have social Security in the United States in which Retirees uh uh are afforded resources to Live in dignity uh after they end their Careers but we don't complement that With something in the beginning of life And my proposition is something called Dream accounts in which the federal Government would offer a $5,000 Investment account to every baby born in America no matter one ZIP code uh it Would be invested in a S&P 500 uh Index Fund in the US Equity Market Market it Would grow over 18 years young people Would have an app on their phone track Their Investments they' have classes in School to learn about financial Management about entrepreneurship and Then as a reward as a reward to graduate High school that account would vest and Young Americans would have 20 to $25,000 To begin their lives start a small Business down payment on a home a little Bit of cash to begin uh their adult
Beginnings and that would reduce our Expenditures down the road that would Solve a lot of the challenges I believe In our country uh and most importantly Reduce our extraordinary expenditures on Incarceration In America which exceed $80,000 per incarcerated individual and I think these are some things that new Leaders Next Generation leaders uh can Conceive can Implement how we regulate Social media artificial intelligence That frankly uh a man of both Donald Trump and Joe Biden's age age I don't Think have that same life experience and Context that younger Generations can so When I ran against Joe Biden I was Really running for generational change And for a a sense of respect uh the Restoration of respect and decency and The Golden Rule Jordan that's what I was Running for it just so happened I was Running in a Democratic primary uh that Clearly uh Democrats didn't have an Appetite for at least not yet so I'll When I was a kid about 14 something like That I got involved with Progressive Politics in Canada the librarian in my local school Was the wife of our local representative Provincially and uh he was the only Left-leaning politician in the entire Province of Alberta and I was attracted by the Policies of the left at that time and
I'm curious about your political Orientation I mean it isn't necessarily Obvious coming from the business Background say that you came from that You would naturally gravitate towards The Democrat side of the house so could You could you start by explaining how Your political convictions developed and Why they've been maintained on the left And and maybe we can talk that that'll Enable us to to talk a little bit too About about things that are somewhat More political and Phil philosophical Than we delved into on the YouTube side So first of all let me start by saying I Don't fit into the perfect political box Uh of any party uh and I'll tell you my Story it it I come from a Jewish family And I will tell you Jordan that in in in America postwar America there was great Affection for the Democratic party uh as The party that prosecuted World War II Of course um was more sensitive to the Jewish community's needs and my Political hero as a kid was Hubert Humphrey uh who was a 20-some year old Mayor of Minneapolis who did extraordinary uh Generous gestures for the Jewish Community the black community in Minneapolis Minneapolis was known as the Most anti-Semitic city in the country in The 1940s it was also it was also Hubert
Humphrey this is very little known but It was a young Hubert Humphrey uh who Went to the Philadelphia Democratic National Convention in 1948 was told by Everybody from whom he seek councel that If he was to issue the speech that he Was planning to issue that he would Likely end his career on the spot and it Was the speech in which he implored the Democratic party to get out of the Shadow of state's rights and into the Bright Sunshine of human rights at that Moment STM Thurman and all the dixie Crats left the arena STM Thurman started A new party ran for president that year Against Harry Truman uh and won four States and not only did it not hurt Humphrey's career it actually Established it and in many ways I think It's underappreciated but it was Hubert Humphrey with that speech that really Started the Democratic party's migration Into the Civil Rights Movement now There's no video of it it's a very Grainy recording of it that might be Part of the problem but I also reflect On the same Hubert Humphrey that as vice President in 19 in the 1960s uh vice President to and Johnson felt very Opposed to the Vietnam War but instead Of having that same courage and speaking Out against it he walked the company Line he suppressed his principles and It
Ultimately cost him the 1968 election it Probably in some way shape or form cost My father's life and cost the lives of Tens of thousands of other people and It's that young Humphrey though that I Really celebrated as a kid because not Just because of Human Rights but because Of Courage you know to to stand up in Front of this Arena full of people And I went to school in 1980 this is a Very interesting quick story in 1980 I Go to school and I go to assembly and Who's speaking to our assembly that day But John Anderson Republican member of Congress had run against Ronald Reagan In the GOP primaries in 1980 and kind of Like Bobby Kennedy left the primary uh And then declared his candidacy as an Independent and he came to speak to our Class that day in 1980 I was 11 years Old years old I'd never seen a Politician before and he spoke about Money in politics and he spoke about the Need for Independence in politics it Didn't mean much to me but that night I Went to dinner with my family four Generations my great-grandparents Grandparents parents and and my brother And me and I sat next to my grandmother Who was Dear Abby the advice columnist She asked me about my day I told her About John Anderson coming she said well Just so you know uh you say he might be President but anybody who speaking to a
Bunch of 11-year-olds this close to the Election is probably not going to win so That was political lesson number one but She said Dean are you a Democrat or Republican and I said Grandma I don't Even know what those are and she said You're a Democrat and it was then that I Learned about this affiliation between The Jewish community and the Democratic Party particularly in Minneapolis Because of Hubert Humphrey who was the Hero to my whole family because what he Did in a time where the Jewish Community Was deeply persecuted um for their faith In Minneapolis so when you ask about the Why that's the why uh it was baked into My family and also and I'll leave it at This it's this deep seat of belief that In some way shape or form the Democratic Party always stood for the underdog you Know for the the downtrodden the the Separated the oppressed the the other And I think I've always grown up with a Little bit of that ethos baked into me Now like many people do I struggle Sometimes with some of the platform of My party or do I grow concerned about Circumstances of course I do uh but That's my affiliation and um and it's Longstanding and somewhat Deep-seated imagine being able to Transition academic papers textbooks Websites emails or PDFs into an audio Format that you can listen to while on
The move the listening app offers Exactly this it's a convenient and Flexible solution for those who want to Learn anytime anywhere the listening app Offers lifelike AI voices complete with Emotion and intonation for a realistic Listening experience it allows you to Indulge in your love for reading and Learning even when you're on the go take Your studying to the next level by Uploading your notes to the listening App with their note taking feature every Time you come across a key idea simply Click the add note button and the app Instantly adds the last few sentences to A notepad enhancing your learning Experience have you ever experienced Motion sickness while trying to read Your favorite book during a journey the Listening app has you covered it allows You to easily convert text and listen Anywhere making your travel time more Enjoyable and nausea free normally you'd Get a 2E free trial but listeners of the Jordan B Peterson podcast can get a Whole month free right now just go to Listening. c/ Jordan or use code Jordan Checkout that's listening. comom Jordan Or use code Jordan checkout [Music] Today okay okay so that that Actually I I definitely want to Del into That more so I just wrote a piece for The
Telegraph it's going to be published Next week um addressing the rising tide Of anti-Semitism in in the Western World now I've been watching this Happened for four Years I've been privy to it to some Degree because I aligned myself with the Daily wire and its most famous Spokesperson is Ben Shapiro and so that Attracted No shortage of anti-Semitic Commentary much of it from the Right but there's something stunningly Pernicious going on that has to do with This question that I mentioned to you on The YouTube side that I've Asked Democrats consistently when does The left go too far so I want to lay out An argument for you okay so now I Understand where you're coming from and I would also say that that proclivity You had to identify with standing up for The underdog let's say was also what Made The the left leaning political party in Alberta more attractive to me as a as a Teenager okay so um I sort of I I was Active politically for about four years When I was a kid and then I just stepped Away from it for well until like six Years ago I still obviously don't have Have an active political career but in Any case here's the problem here's a Problem I want to know what you think
About because this gets right to the Heart of the matter so my sense is that The left goes too far in the modern World when it talks about equity and I I Want to I want to tell you why I think That because there's an equation there Now the equation is something like Um if we analyze people by the groups They're affiliated with With and we find that there's a group That's over represented statistically in Positions of authority and arguably Power let's say Authority influence Competence and power just to cover the Territory quite nicely then the only Possible reason for that over Representation is something Approximating systemic Oppression now that that's an equity Doctrine in my estimation and and I Think that evidence for that is crystal Clear now there's a problem there's many Problems with that Doctrine the first Problem is the proposition that we Should divide people up by groups Because that can be Done Without End multiplying the Potential dimensions of Oppression Without End and that's the danger I see On the postmodern front but there's Something even more pernicious because If we're going to play the game of over Representation in positions of privilege Are indication of systemic bias and
Oppression then the Jews are immediately On the firing block because there are no There is no grouping of people that's More likely to be statistically Represented at the upper echelons of Virtually every domain than the Jews now My sense of that is That the Jews and their proclivity to Hyper aieve are a massive net benefit to Any society that has has enough sense And courage to not only tolerate but Welcome and encourage a successful Minority but that can be turned and Inverted viciously as it has been for Thousands of years right it's always Been the same story So I see in the equity Doctrine a kind Of poison like a true poison that's Predicated on that equation now the Poison is twofold not only is there an Oppressor oppression Nar that's very Easy to digest which is that statistical Oprah representation indicates Oppression that's bad enough because It's a hyper simplification but there's An additional element to it that's Insanely pernicious which is that now All you have to do to demonstrate your Moral virtue is Ally yourself with the Hypothetically oppressed and you've done Your moral duty and the I believe that a Tremendous amount of the culture War That's raging now that's manifesting Itself as anti-Semitism and that I
Believe has devastated our Institutes of Higher education is a consequence of That Doctrine and so well yeah I'm Curious about what you think about all That you know my first reaction is that Two things can be true at once you Things that have good intentions that I Think are just and appropriate can Sometimes have ramifications that are Negatively affect someone else or be Taken too far and this is probably a Discussion where we could surely talk About that but when I think of equity Generally uh let me let me start with The en enslaved Americans uh anybody who Believes that slavery does not have a Long tale that exists to this very day I Just would beg you to understand how That's just patently untrue uh it's one Thing to deny one generation something But to deny multiple Generations Family education literacy Opportunity that becomes very hard to Overcome and I do think that slavery is An example U of A systemic flaw in the United States that continues to have Ramifications to this day and I think is Worthy of rectification I think of my Own I think of women I think of the Great grandmothers uh Sarah and Rose my Great-grandmothers who could not vote When they turned 18 years old because Women were not afforded the right to Vote when they were is that an example
Of equity yes my own Community the Jewish community in Minneapolis Jewish Physician i s in the 1940s could not Practice at any Minneapolis Hospital Jordan not a one Hubert Humphrey along With my great-grandfather members of the Jewish and Gentile Community got Together and they built a hospital Called Mount Si hospital it was a form Of equity because it was the only Hospital that would afford staff Privileges to Jewish Physicians and of Course when they opened every other Hospital changed its policies so you Know even in my own community in the in The early part of the 20th century uh we Relegated to the worst jobs imaginable You know uh pots and pans uh they Entered Hollywood because Hollywood and Movie making was kind of a uh a a Secondary type of Industry uh they they Got into the spirits business like my Family did in in wine and spirits Distribution they had to take on jobs And industries in which the welltoo Weren't interested in and I used Mount Sin as an example of that was an act of Equity that afforded opportunity and Then the community took advantage of That um Level Playing Field if you will And now it's somewhat of meritocracy so I don't I think two things can be true At once I don't want to see anybody Disadvantaged because of somebody else's
Advantage but I do think that we do have Some obligations in a just Society to Afford a little bit more to give someone A boost to a group or a party or a sex Or a race or a religion that had been Denied opportunity for a long time and I Don't don't think they're incompatible Notions is my only Sense and Sensibility Now I will say am I deeply concerned About those on the left who seem to Leave their affection for the underdog Uh at the doorstep of the Jewish people Yes and I am I concerned that Jewish People are now somehow perceived as the Oppressors now I don't look like someone Who might be under persecution or risk Or threat you know because I'm a white Businessman but the fact of the matter Is I and my community are very so so I I'm concerned and I I think a lot of What you said I I concur with other Parts of it this notion that Equity has Gone too far I don't know if it's gone Too far until we do establish some Degree of a Level Playing Field and I Think that is what a just Society should Pursue and I think there are still Examples where we still have residuals Of policy that have kept a lot of people From achieving and that's why I'm not as Someone who who believes in the Redistribution of income wealth I do Believe in a redistribution of Opportunity that does not necessarily
Mean away from other people it simply Means incrementally affording it to Those who had been denied it for reasons Well beyond their control and that is um That's my perspective and um I think It's a worthy Conversation there's no no denying that There's a wide range of difference in Access to Opportunity it isn't obvious to to me That that can be rectified in any Straightforward sense because the Dimensions of potential inequality are Innumerable so for example it isn't Obvious to me at all all that if you're Poor and young you're more disadvantaged Than someone who's old and Rich and most Because most people who are old and Rich Would swap their wealth in a second to Be young and poor well wealth is Relative right mhm well well this is Exactly my point is that is that Calculating the potential dimensions of Oppression is a see this is the Transformation that's occurred in the Postmodern what would you call variation Of the underlying Marxism that used to Play the inequality game on the economic Side is the dimensions of of Oppression And inequality have multiplied endlessly And and that's a that's a very bad game Because there is some dimension on which You're an oppressor you can be Absolutely certain of that from in from
The perspective of that game you know And you you pointed to it yourself you Know on the on the minority side there's Your Jewish Heritage but on the Oppressor side well that's assuming that The Jews are allowed to be a minority You know as opposed to an oppressor and We're way past that but on the other Side there's the fact that you're white And male and so but you can take any Given individual and you can find the Dimension on which they no pressor and This is what disturbs me profoundly About the equity gain and you know you You you you elided two terms I would say And and I don't understand this exactly But this is something that I do see Characteristic of the Democrats in Particular because there's an insistence On the Democrat side that Equity means Equality of opportunity and that's not What it means it means equality of Outcome and your own VI president camea Well but that's how she's defined it That's that's that's what the I mean There may be people who interpret outes Yeah then why do we use the word Equity Because look the only reason that word Was introduced into the academic Parlament to begin with was to alide the Difference between equality of Opportunity and equ and and equality of Outcome I can't speak for every Democrat I I believe I can speak for most of us
In Congress when I say that our Aspiration as Democrats is to rectify that imbalance Of opportunity to afford it to more not At the not to not being detri Al to Those who already have it but Incrementally afford more it is the Equality of opportunity to which we Aspire I I do not know many I'm sure There are some that would say the Objective is the equality of outcome by Almost by definition that's Socialism or Communism which doesn't work well there There there are certainly plenty of them In the AC in Academia I understood I'm I'm and that I understand I'm talking But I am talking about and this is where The branding the the anger tainment The Division I think is a little bit Misportrayed and that and I'm not saying That I'm not speaking for all but that Is indeed my aspiration as a Democrat I Believe most is that equality of Opportunity yeah okay I agree with you I Believe that's the case this is one of The things that makes Me curious and be fidal by this Situation because it is my experience When I'm talking to Democrats of the Moderate structure That They what they're attempting to Foster Is best conceptualized as the equality Of opportunity that's core to the
American Vision but that isn't what the radicals On the left are pushing and I for the Life of me I cannot see and I as you Know I worked on the Democrat side for a Substantial amount of time and I've had This discussion for like 10 years and I Still see no movement whatsoever on the Democrat moderate side to understand the Threat that the leftist radicals pose to The to the moderate Democrat Mission Even by elighting the difference between Equality of outcome and equality of Opportunity so so and here's one example Of that is that I do believe and I'm Trying to look at this from the Perspective of a politically informed Psychologist that part of the reason That Trump is the attractive phenomenon That he is is because the the moderate Democrats won't draw a line between them Themselves and the radicals and this is Part of what I pointed to earlier that's Part and parcel of the moderate refusal To Define when the left goes too far now You did to some degree because you said You don't believe in equality of outcome Right and you said also that most of Your most of your peers your Particularly reasonable peers also don't Believe that and that might even be true Of Someone Like Bernie Sanders because I Saw Sanders become entirely befuddled in An interview not so long ago when he was
Pushed on the distinction between equity And equality of opportunity but it's a Cardinal danger and and the reason I'm Trying to BR draw this to your attention At the moment is because I do believe That the fruits of that evil seed are Making themselves manifest in this Spate Of anti-Semitism and my my understanding Of the P persecution of the Jews going Back Millennia is that the Jews are Almost always a successful minority and There's very complex reasons for that Many of which are cultural now you can Attribute that to conspiratorial Collusion behind the scenes and the Anti-semites love to do that whether They're on the right or the left but the Left has an additional systemic problem With anti-Semitism at the moment which Is their definition of Oppression and Oppression is equated to Disproportionate representation in Positions of privilege and if that's Going to be the definition then the Jews Are first on the firing block you know When I think about anti-Semitism and um You reflected on on cultural traditions And and I I realize as a as a policy Maker a lawmaker a lot of what I Discovered about my own Community the Jewish community that has afforded its Created its own opportunities stem from A belief in family a fierce protection Uh the lessons of the Torah which you
Know any abrahamic faith teaching Decency the sharing with one another uh And also Education and as a policy maker that has Very much informed me Jordan as to how We overcome the persecution that the Jewish people have faced since being Enslaved in Egypt and uh the Holocaust And so many times through history and Then this is going to sound maybe Interesting but I think you'll Understand the fact that at age 13 young Jewish boys and girls have a bar B Mitzvah at that age to be forced to Appear in front of your community to Have to prepare diligently to speak in Front of them to make a speech to read The Torah to to share that on stage is a Very powerful driver of U of confidence And ambition and the same way if you go To high school and you have to make a Senior speech the minute you get in Front of your peers and you overcome That fear it is extraordinarily Empowering and I think a lot of the Success of the Jewish community and so Many cultures around the world stems From these Traditions that very Intentionally Elevate at a very young Age uh the need for family education Ambition study the things that make for Human success literacy and I share that Because as a policy maker it is those Very um opportunities the equity is we
Talk about Equity that's what I wish to Share with those who are denied that for No other reason than the fact they Weren't born born into a family like Mine despite all the persecution and Anti-Semitism we faced to me those are The solutions those Traditions okay so But so then I agree like I look I agree With you and that but I would say to Some degree that's what's made me a Conservative to the degree that I am a Conservative and so so because the the Dictums that you just put forward don't Strike me as corresponding to the notion That the fundamental problem is to be Summed up as systemic oppression it's It's it's deeper than that and I it it's Deeper than that and it has something to Do with first principles and the first Principles that you laid out this is What we've been doing with this Arc Enterprise in London right the alliance For responsible citizenship we've been Trying to turn it into something Approximating an international classic Liberal and conservative voice but it is Predicated on the idea that communities That are founded on those fundamental Principles are much more like To Avail themselves of the opportunities That will lift their members out of out Of poverty and disgrace and so and I get But it also requires to me it still Requires an it doesn't mean a system of
Equity but it certainly in most cases Means an act of equity because even my Community as I said with my Mount sin Hospital uh story or redlining there has To be some type of an effort uh to at Least escape the past And and build a little bit of a platform Raise the platform absent that I'm Afraid Jordan that uh so many Communities that we might be talking About won't even have the chance to Practice an AM Meritocracy look there there's I think There's little doubt about that you know Here I just talked to this gentleman Named Rob Henderson Henderson's a very Interesting character because he grew up In a series of foster homes in a very Fractionated family community and his Background was sort of working class Like mine but mine different from his Because every single person I knew all The adults I knew were married and in Stable relationships all of them whereas None of the adults he knew were like That he didn't have any role models of Stable Relationship right and so the I see in The radical side on the left in Particular an assault on the Institutions that provide for the Equality of opportunity that you just Described and that's also why it makes Me be fuddled that the moderates won't
Segregate themselves from the people who For example are hellbent on attacking The structure of the nuclear family Which I think is the minimal viable unit For society to to predicate itself upon And and Jordan that you I'm not even Sure it's optimal but it's certainly Minimal that act of equity about which I Spoke moments ago for me was the Blessing of being adopted who knows how My life would worked out after losing Dad you pointed it that's right you Pointed it out right of conversation so In a way in a way I think you know we Could be saying the same things and I Feel to some degree a responsibility now Because I was afforded something that so Many I'm probably the most fortunate Gold star child of the whole Vietnam era I can't imagine any kid that lost a dad In Vietnam got as lucky as I did and That's why I feel such a distinct need To afford that single act of equity in This case being adopted a little boost I Think in a way what this conversation And those that we should be having Millions more of can actually find some Common ground because you're right there Are elements of conservatism and Tradition that I have to be uh Perpetuated if we stand any chance of of Success but I would also argue from more Of the left perspective there also has To be some intention to at least bring
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Today all right so let's let's talk About that I want to return to the Policy issues at some point but I think The more gerain point at the moment I Think is likely your experience doing This so you had as far as I was Concerned I'm in a strange position as a Commentator on American politics because I'm a Canadian but gives me a certain Detachment I would say at least to some Degree and I mean it seemed to me that At minimum your campaign was warranted Given the polling numbers it also struck Me that it was very unlikely that the Democrats were going to russle up a Candidate who in principle might have a Broader appeal than you I've watched RFK Um we can talk a little bit about his Campaign at some point I think that Might be interesting but um you you you Had the qualifications that struck me as Necessary and desirable To offer an alternative to the the Current regime given people's concerns And my sense was that wise Democrats Might have been sufficiently terrified By the possibility of losing the next Election which I think is very likely That they were they would be casting About for a potential viable alternative Maybe even because Biden is sufficiently Elderly so that his viability is limited In an extreme sense and that you might Want to have someone around as an
Alternative if the worst happens and so And I was curious about how your Campaign might progress and I must say I Thought that you would get more Traction than you did and so we Communicated a little bit right from the Beginning of your plans um not Tremendous amount but enough so that I Knew what was going on and um I was Absolutely well I don't want to put Words in your mouth what happened what Happened what did you experience tell Tell me tell me the whole story if you Would because everybody needs to know What happened to you in relationship to Your colleagues and what happened to you On the legal and practical fronts and What happened to you in relationship to The media which might be the most gerine Question EX exactly and especially in This day and age the absence of platform Jordan is the uh is the most critical Deficiency that that I faced uh as Someone who did not come to this with Massive name recognition now mind you Those in Congress who are well known Throughout this country typically Generate that name recognition uh by Being jerks by being aggressive by being Provocative by being oftentimes Mean-spirited and that is counter my Nature I recognize as someone who is not Often on cable news at night uh that That was going to be a challenge but but
Start let me get back to the very Beginning you know my contention was That the country needed Alternatives my Contention was that the President should Pass the torch which is what I did Beginning in July of 2022 encouraged him Publicly to pass the torch it was met in My own caucus with a lot of dismay Because you don't do that you know God Forbid you say to the incumbent that he Or she should step aside uh needless to Say he did not uh then I started a Public and private initiative to Encourage others to participate uh I Telephoned uh governor pritsker in Illinois I telephoned Governor Whitmer In Michigan made a public call whether It's Governor Nome or vice president Harris I said to the next generation of Democrats this is the time the polls are Bad the approval numbers are bad the Country is saying they want choices so Let's meet the moment uh I never Intended nor anticipated that I would Have to do it but in the absence of Anybody willing to forgo their future Perhaps and meet the national moment I Was so upset so disappointed that Ultimately in the absence of anybody Else doing it Jordan two weeks before The New Hampshire filing deadline in mid October uh I decided to do it myself uh Steve Schmidt had had me on his podcast Uh we had quite a conversation uh he
Recalled how in 2020 he believed that Joe Biden is the only one that could Defeat Donald Trump he felt in 2024 that I was that person and uh we did work Together for a handful of weeks to Initiate my campaign went up to New Hampshire uh as you might know it was an Unusual year in New Hampshire because The Democratic party had taken away New Hampshire's first in the nation primary Status uh and handed it to South Carolina and that offered an opportunity Because Joe Biden was on the ballot and We thought if we could perform well There not unlike another not well-known Minnesota Democrat in 1968 Eugene McCarthy uh it was he who challenged President Johnson that time and actually Inspired him to leave the race by Generating almost 45% of the vote that Year and that was somewhat of our Strategy what I did not anticipate was a Party that was so intent on preventing Competition and I did not anticipate a Media ecosystem that was somehow aligned With that um Uh that deplatforming if you will and of Course for a campaign that was not well Resourced for one that could not attract Democratic uh experienced operatives Because they would be blackballed if They worked for an insurgence campaign Uh you know the cards were stacked Against us uh but that didn't preclude
At least the effort but the you asked The question of what was most Consequential uh the two parties and I'm Going to say this because it's really Important it is not just the Democratic Party the two-party system the duopoly If you will they're the ones that have Set the rules Jordan in the United States you know we do not have Competition because the two parties have Electively um cooperatively Prevented it by setting the rules in all The 50 states and at the federal level And that means when there is an Incumbent he or she will be protected Forget the polls forget intuition forget What the country might be asking for These are private institutions that Operate on their own by their own rules Uh behind closed doors most of us don't Even know who they are ultimately and They're making decisions of Extraordinary consequence not just for The United States of America and for our Neighbors to the north and South but for The entire world and not being exposed To that is very was something that I was Not prepared for okay I want to Interject something there because it Seems to me that you hit something Key with that observation to the Attraction of Trump see I think that people feel the The the the typical bread and butter
People of the United States who are Attracted by Trump despite His his bull in a china shop way let's Say are attracted to him to some degree Precisely for that reason and they do Feel in their bones what you just Described and they're willing to take a Risk on someone who has that bull in the China shop nature and this is also true Of RFK by the way because I think he is Quite similar on the Democrat side As Trump was on the Republican side I mean RFK in some ways is a more sophis iated He's more sophisticated in his Public Presentation and he has a more Intellectual man but he has the same There's real similarities in temperament And approach and I Believe that people are attracted to Trump because they believe he will Rampage around to some unpredictable Degree and potentially break that Domination of behind the scenes actors That you just described now I from what You said today and from some of the Conversations we've had before that the Degree to which you encountered Monolithic opposition was actually Rather uh surprising to you not merely From your colleagues now you pointed to The fact that there are systemic reasons For that which we shall delve into Should delve into and also talk about The behind the scenes actors but also
Because of the collusion of the Legacy Media with that those actors now that's Certainly something that people on the More conservative side or I would say Classic liberal now side of the spectrum Have been push pointing to for like five Years it's like what the hell is going On here the journalists have lined up With the powers that be and any Objection whatsoever to whatever the Plan seems to be has now become verboten That's why there's such relief for Example with regard to musk and his Purchase of Twitter and which with all The platform on which he reinstated me Uh you know precisely for standing up Against because I had been eliminated From that platform precisely for Objecting to uh what would you say Certain phenomena that went against the The behind the scenes narrative so so You were struck by okay so so let's take This apart first of all there's a Mystery here right because you what you Tried to do was to point out very Clearly and correct me if I get any of This wrong you tried to point out to Your colleagues that they were in very Danger in real danger of losing what it Was that they were hypothetically aiming For which was maintenance of the Presidency and then you look to find People who were likely leaders perhaps In a position better than yours given
More name brand recognition and none of Them would do it so you decided that you Would go ahead with it and what you Found on the Democrat side was and you And you said that that may have also Been something that would characterize The Republican party so we don't have to Make a p partisan accusation here but The reality he ran into was Monolithic um opposition to your Campaign that extended to the point Where you actually had a hard time Finding Democrats who would work for you Because they were afraid for the Viability of their political careers in The future is that is that all accurate Exact B that is so accurate in fact Jordan it you could play the same story In 2020 If a republican had challenged Donald Trump he or she could have done so under The same terms I challenged Joe Biden Which is he's probably going to lose and Shouldn't we have an alternative that Might actually win but if imagine if Someone had done that they would have Encountered the exact same impediments And barriers that I did I want to speak To it because you're a better Commentator on The Human Condition than I but we both know that we operate with Reward systems and incentives in Congress there is no incentive to go Against your party when it comes to
These decisions because it will impede Your path to either maintaining your Seat or to ascending uh to hire to hire Office despite the fact that behind the Scenes Jordan my Republican colleagues During the Trump years almost Universally despised him privately and Then when the cameras are on totally Different perspective same thing with Joe Biden behind the scenes people were Utterly afraid of his standing of their Concern that he's going to lose that we Need an alternative but then the cameras Came on and it would be a very different Story it really bothered me to say the Same to see the same disease affecting The entire Congress but the incentives Make sense there is no incentive to be Bold or to get out of line or to offer An alternative because it will almost by Definition end your career now it's the Same issue with the media let's say You're a journalist and you rely on a Leak from the White House on information From the white house uh access to talent That the White House provides to your Sunday show or your evening uh cable Program if you go against them if you Disappoint them if you object to them or You say something or do something they Don't like they can always then go to CNN they can go to another Outlet so we We Tiptoe through these mind Fields if you
Will uh of of navigating The Human Condition and that's where we find Ourselves politically it's where the Media finds itself because the Incentives are perfectly aligned with The two parties uh mandates and Objectives and they are misaligned with The overwhelming majority of center Right and Center left Americans and I Want to be really clear to people Listening and watching I have no animus Towards anyone who supports Donald Trump As long as you're a person of decency And principle and integrity I do have Animist towards Donald Trump it's both Personal it's Collective but I want to Separate the man from people the same Way I would ask that people who do not Support Joe Biden uh would also separate Voters of Joe for Joe Biden from the man Himself and I want to have these Conversations to also reflect on the Fact that this is about individuals I Have respect for conservatism I have Respect for libertarian perspectives I Have respect of course for progressives But as I have this discussion with you I Just want to make it very clear this is The duopoly some call it the unip party It is real uh there is misalignments and Most of all perverse incentives that Have to be exposed have to be discussed And have to be rectified the Overwhelming majority of my colleagues
Strange bedfellows want to change the System for the same reason because it is Not working any longer so okay so There's one question I I have that Emerges out of that which is That the you would expect if the Legacy Media was aligned with the political Forces that be that that currently Prevail for reasons of practical access That during the Trump Administration They would have tilted heavily in the Direction of a prot trump stance but I Don't really think I saw any evidence of That so like my sense is that the Machine that P that produces The the the Democrat the machine that produces the Platform of the Democrats is exactly the Same machine that produces the ethos of The leg media journalists and so there's A natural alignment there now I and I Would say that machine fundamentally or The mechanisms of higher education it's More complex than that but that's not a Bad place to start so you you talked About so there's two issues here and you Talked about a system of perverse Incentives that aligns itself on the Political side behind the incumbent in Some manner no matter What right and that that system of Incentives is operating so powerfully That that is the case even when there is Real evidence of concern that the
Incumbent might be insufficient for the Job or lose which is also a definition Of insufficient for the job right and so That's worth delving into like what is It in the incentive structure that Aligns people with a losing candidate at The cost potentially losing candidate at I know it's close and that makes things Complicated too because people could say Well I can imagine a situation where Where Biden might Biden might win so is It is it that the race is so close that The that the incentives are Mixed what do you think exactly what do You think's going on my belief is that When human beings become proximate to Power that they will place that Proximity uh Above their own fellow countrymen and Women and I think that has a lot to do With why there is this kind of in There's this absolutism around Incumbency it's not rational it's not Pragmatic uh but once people are close To positions of power they want to Protect it because their careers their Proximity their uh their Futures are Tied up in that person uh that's why we See people sticking around in our Senate In our Congress on the Supreme Court in The White House in my estimation for Much longer than they should because They are surrounded by sycophant by People who are far more focused on their
Own personal Futures and preservation of Power influence access uh than they put On the country itself and I think that Is Again part of the human condition and That needs to be at least exposed Because that's the only thing if you ask Me um that can explain why we have so Many people who are otherwise quite Rational and quite pragmatic uh that Somehow dismiss those attributes when it Comes to um political elections and it Makes very little sense to me because Numbers don't lie numbers don't lie and I would argue that either party that Would have broken if you will this Log Jam either the Republicans with Trump or The Democrats with Biden if one had Turned to a Next Generation able Competent prepared leader uh I think it Would have made all the difference in The world but the absence of even that Consideration to me is the only Indicator you need to recognize who Really controls the strings and what Their real mandate is which is not Necessarily I think in the country's Best interest rather in individuals best Interest and that's exactly the problem In the Congress and in so many other Elements of U American politics and Frankly in most Countries sleep is a foundation for our Mental and physical health in other Words you've got to have a consistent
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Communal interest let's say it's very Likely that in any given battle the Short-term interest is going to win Because the incremental cost to the Long-term battle is low and the Incremental cost to the person is high Okay so that's a problem and maybe maybe It's also the case and I say this again As an observer of your country from the Outside is that you Americans have been Split 5050 on the voting front for for Multiple elections now at the federal Level And so you can understand that it's Always plausible that the incumbent Could Win and so that that also mitigates Against the utility of launching a more Radical or or uh or Daring let's say offense of the sort That you did now okay so okay so let's But can I get back I want to get can I I Want to get back to one thing quick Before we move on though Jordan because I think I think it's worth comparing Canada and the US right now you know Canada has has you know two Fundamentally two even though in the Parliamentary system you fundamentally Have two you know major parties uh and Of course the CBC is you know is kind Somewhat of the standard you know in the United States something changed from the Time I was a young man to to now at age
55 and I just before we move on from Legacy Media you know there is some Something changed fundamentally when People recognize how much money there Was to be made uh by separating uh by Making this a almost a sport Uh by making it entertainment by the Fact the fact that we essentially have Three cable networks dedicated to Politics uh you know even in the sports World uh there was only one ESPN but Politics was was crafted to become a Competitive Sport and it divided this Country in such a remarkable fashion uh I would argue that even you know and you Can opine on this of course as a Canadian but in Canada that Gap if you Will between left and right is I would Argue narrower than it has become in the United States I don't know if it's Necessarily true but it's positioned That way and media has played a Substantial role in having us believe That the other side is dangerous that we Should be afraid that we have no common Ground that we do not share values Anymore and that is to me uh the most Challenging circumstance we face in Overcoming because the fact of the Matter is I do not believe that to be True I do believe what we're being fed What we're digesting what we're being Offered uh has so shifted this narrative Into a competition rather than
Celebrating ideas debate deliberation And even conversation like we're having Right now and I just want to make sure That people understand how media has Taken advantage of us and I do believe As you say the Legacy Media and it has Impacted this country in extraordinarily Negative Fashions when I say Legacy I'm Talking about cable because I grew up in An era where Walter Kron told us the way It was we had three channels they all Basically said the same thing and then Over the water cooler at the office People would have their debate and Deliberation using the same facts now we Can't even discern what is fact what is Fiction and I think that is uh because Of cable news has really affected us in A way that I don't believe has done the Same in Canada and most countries in the World well I think there's more Difference between the left and the Right in Canada than there is in the US But at the moment there's less Antipathy still antipathy although That yeah I think I think that's we we Won't go there for a moment that's a NE Conversation but that's an interesting Yeah there's a difference between the Policy Golf and the respect golf yeah Yeah and although we we've got plenty of Things that are shaking hard in Canada At the moment so all right so so now it Sounds to me see see I was curious when
When I asked you to engage in this Conversation I was curious to see what It was that you've concluded and I could Imagine that that going two ways one was That you were you found yourself even More concerned with the what would you Say lack of Flexibility of the Democrat Party and The monolith that you ran into or you Could voice your concerns at an even Deeper level and say that the monolith That you ran into was actually Reflection not so much of um the Intransigence of the Democrats per se But a reflection of something that's More systemic and and more and more and Deeper and so it sounds to me like You've landed on that side of the of the Decision is that the ladder yeah the Ladder and I say that Jordan because First of all I believe it to be true It's it is systemic it's a result of two Parties protecting the duopoly that in My in my business experience a doop is Always what I tried to disrupt we did it With beler vodka uh sto and absolute Were the two big Brands we came in Badier did very well Ben and Jerry's and Hoganas in ice cream we came with tent Gelato and now I see Democrats and Republicans in this systemic competition Uh that is kind of a race to the bottom Too often and I think that is why so Many in this country find themselves so
Disenfranchised so angry so upset so Unheard because the no longer are Representatives incentivized to attend To those concerns and challenges they're Incentivized to Simply win win and beat And win and beat and that's why I have To say I understand the attraction of Donald Trump to so many tens of millions Of Americans someone who has said to Them I understand you by the way Donald Trump in my estimation Jordan was a man Who went through very similar Circumstances in New York City a man who Aspired to be part of the uh the social Scene in New York of the philanthropic Philanthropic scene and the clubs and he Was not accepted In Manhattan now forget the fact that He's a wealthy man and a billionaire People say how can he relate to rural Americans who feel unheard well you know What I think he caught on to something That is shared by many regardless of Their means there was a classist element To it that I found quite distasteful now I come from a rural background I'm an Alberton and a northern Alberton and That's like weigh the hell out in the Sticks by anybody's standards and one of The things I really noticed about the Intellectual Elite types who were Discussing discussing Trump is that they Had a contempt for him that was Essentially class-based for one reason
Or another he's newvo re right and even If he has the money which which which You referred to that doesn't put him in The educated ivy league upper class Elite club and that's also a club that Many Americans aren't going to Aspire to And part of the reason they also Appreciate Trump is that the typical Striving workingclass person who might Dream for example of having his or own Business can imagine being rich like Trump but can't necessarily imagine Being Ivy leagued like like the New York Elite and so there is a Fundamental what dimension of Alliance There that's quite obvious I I believe And Trump plays whe to whether that's Real or not and I think it is real at Least to some degree Trump is Extraordinarily good at that direct Communication that makes people feel That they're being listened to and he Also doesn't hide behind his speech Writers like when when I watched Trump Win the the the first election the when He became president I thought people Prefer the unscripted spontaneous lies Of Donald Trump to the scripted and Nuanced and prepared lies of Hillary Clinton that's what it looked like to me And I thought there was something to That because he had the daring and the Audacity to be spontaneous and there and People trust that you know I've noticed
For example in my on my YouTube channel Now and then I'll read something that I Prepared very carefully because I Don't believe that I have the ability to Walk through the argument spontaneously At a sufficient depth so I'll write a Column and read it those never work as Well as the spontaneous YouTube Conversations right No it's human people people want to see People want to identify with someone who Appears to be human and to your point Fallible and imperfect and mess up Sometimes but uh you know authentic I Think is the word we're looking for and Yes politics is so scripted everything Is talking points and and well lit and Perfectly planned and and yes I Understand that's my message to my Fellow Democrats right now is we got to Start listening more we got to start Showing up in small towns around America We can't talk like professors we should Be listening we should be not talking as Much as listening you know I there is Not so much a massive policy golf in America I think that is a construct of Media it is a con the golf if you will And the Gap is is like in any Relationship whether it's a friendship a Romantic relationship a professional Relationship people want to be affirmed And they want to feel heard and in the Absence of that which is I think the
Great shortcoming of my party right now In the absence of that people will Migrate to whomever makes them feel Heard and they will forego and dismiss a Lot of negative characteristics simply Because it fulfills that basic human Need to be understood to be not demeaned Or disrespected but to be heard and that Is to me the root of politics it's Humanity there there's there's no Difference between a competent leader And someone who listens Those are the same thing Bingo yeah now Now Joe Biden is a man of empathy but he Is not perceived by I think he's Perceived by too many Americans is not Someone who understands how they're Feeling now Donald Trump has made people Feel like he gets it now but he's not a Man of great empathy having sat across The table with him obviously so there Are some massive disconnects in fact When I say not a man of great empathy a Man of almost zero empathy but the power Of making people feel like they're heard Is the most magnificent tool in any Politician's kit and he's doing it Better and that's my message to the President and to my fellow Democrats That we have a lot of work to do uh and It's the easiest work one can do making Someone feel heard and appreciated and Understood can you contrast the Experience you had in relationship to
The Legacy Media and the experience you Had at the hands of the I mean you you Had you were on a number of podcasts That you got some traction online Although very little in the Legacy Media What did you see as the as the Difference and and do you do you think That your explanation that the Legacy Media broadcasters that could have Focused on your Campaign failed to do so because they Were concerned about forgoing their Access do you think that's a sufficient Explanation for the degree to which you Were locked out of the out of the show Yeah look I'm a business person Jordan At heart and the answer is yes that is The there was a disincentive to platform Me because the risk and reward the Opportunity cost if you will uh did not Work in my favor now to your to your Question about um New Media that was the Most magnificent part of my campaign was The discovery of so many remarkable Platforms most importantly long form Like this how can you get to know Somebody when you're on television for Minutes uh with a journalist who's got To move on to the next segment you know Within 30 seconds and they're there to Get a wow moment right you can't learn About who somebody is and if you don't Know who someone is how can you trust Them why would you vote for them uh with
The the podcasts I did were remarkable Uh I learned about myself I opened my Heart and mind to issues I hadn't Considered I did some that were Centrist I did some that were more left leaning And certainly some they more right Leaning uh and that uh that universe was Uh eye-opening to me in the best part of Running for office the most Disappointing part was the inability of Most of the mainstream media to afford Much platform now news Nation did Because they're the upstart trying to Compete CNN a little bit but let me just Give you an example I was the only I'm Sorry every single Republican Challenger To Donald Trump was afforded a one-hour Town hall on CNN uh during the GOP Primaries Chris Christie uh B Ramaswami uh Mike Pence um Nikki Haley Uh Ronda santis there may have been Another five or oh Trump so there were Six all of them running in single digits Other than Haley um by the way I got 20% In New Hampshire I did better than most People thought CNN did not give me a Town hall and that would have been the First and only opportunity I would have Had to Simply show up in front of Voters To answer their questions not the Media's questions and to introduce Myself the absence of that was very um Destructive MSNBC I'm the ranking member of the
Middle East subcommittee on Foreign Affairs during a war between Israel and Hamas I wasn't extended a single Invitation over four months to appear on MSNBC The One invitation that came was The morning after the uh South Carolina Primary where Joe Biden was certain to Do very well because that is where um His last campaign really got its start So it gives you an example of incentives And disincentives and Fox new Was far more Hospitable uh just about every show Invited me uh afforded me some platform And and not in a way that was designed In my estimation to only try to um say Nasty things about President Biden uh They gave me an opportunity because of Course for them now there's nothing to Lose so the answer is yes that's how it Works I think that is the only Explanation it might be different now Maryann Williamson she's running uh she Ran in 2020 she ran in 2024 again never Afforded platform now they'll tell you Well it's because she pulls so low well We all know this is a chicken in the egg Jordan I think it's a Responsibility of mainstream media You're also a much more credible Candidate also a much more Point neither Of us so okay so but neither of us were Afforded that opportunity but yes but But New Media afforded great opportunity
And but for that I probably never would Have had a chance at all mhm okay so let Me drill down on something that's a Little bit more a little bit more pushy Here if you don't mind sure well okay so Because I am I am trying to sort this Out so I think one of the reasons you're Pointing to one of the reasons why Trump Is so attractive another one of the Reasons why Trump is so attractive see The the degree of collusion between the Democrat powers that be in the Legacy Media is stunning to me and it it's not Only the Legacy Media right it's Happening behind the scenes in a Terrible way with the large tech Companies so for example my interview With Robert F Kennedy was pulled by YouTube now I watched the American Press Flip out about hypothetical Russian Collusion in the last election and YouTube had the goal to deplatform a Presidential candidates two and a half Hour one and a half hour interview right And then YouTube took down three more of My uh my interviews fol focusing on the Issue of trans surgery and since then by All appearances have been throttling my Account and this sort of thing is going On behind the scenes all the time and it Does seem to me that it's going on Behind the scenes a lot more on the Legacy medd Democrat side than it is Going on in the Legacy Media Republican
Side because the Legacy Media is Overwhelmingly left leaning and I don't Mean I don't mean classic liberal Leaning and I also don't mean that about The universities because they were once Classical liberal left leaning rather Than conservative or libertarian Conservative or conservative or Libertarian uh rightwing but so I also Think that part of the reason that the Impetus toward Trump is so powerful is Because people feel that operation not Only of the monolith which stopped you From moving forward but an increasingly Secret mon That operates behind the scenes now We've seen exactly how that works in Recent weeks too in in a manner that to Me is shocking Beyond Comprehension and That was Google's release of Gemini Which was an especially on the image Generating side which do you know that Not only did they train their AI system On a corpus of knowledge that leans left Substantively but they retooled the Prompts that their users offered when They they were generating images and Other queries they've they technically Re-engineered the questions so that The uh presumptions of the Dei Squad Would be interjected into the questions Themselves which meant that Google was Conspiring not only to mess with the Ideas that people had but with the facts
Themselves that were offered for their Apprehension and it's the feeling of That sort of thing happening and I can't Help but see that collusion taking place More at the moment more on the side of The left now that could flip in a moment And might and and it'll be held to pay For the left when that happens but but That's so I'm willing To I understand your concern for the Structural Inadequacies and the perverse incentives That made the Emer emergence of a Monolith against you more likely but it Seems to me that there's something else Going on here that is more Characteristic of the Democrat side of The of the argument that is also deadly And dangerous enough so that the Probability that the presidency is going To be delivered into the hands of Donald Trump is very very high so well so That's a rough question and so I'm Curious about about what you think I Don't know if I heard a I I don't well I Don't know if I heard a question first Of all I'll confess to you that I don't Yeah I don't know and I'll I'll be Forthright I don't know the answer I I Don't know what I don't know in fact Maybe that's called humility uh in the Old days I don't know how it works I'm a Member of Congress everybody watching Listening would imagine I should know
Everything about how it works well the Fact of the matter is I do not uh what I Do believe uh is that the Legacy Media About which you speak should be Intentionally offering perspectives on Both sides of a subject I would love to See Jordan a weekly National show that Would have a Republican and Democrat Debate an issue of the day to Demonstrate to model uh I don't know What's working behind the scenes I don't Know uh without the evidence I would Never share that uh why I was Deplatformed or not included um I I've Surely tracked what you've just shared About um censorship and Deplatforming uh I don't know if that's Actually happening I don't know if uh What happens on the right uh but I all I Do know is that we have reached a point Where truth is hard to discern uh where People are condemned so quickly from Opposing for having an opposing view uh That they're essentially silenced and I Think we when I say we I'm talking about All of us progressives liberals classic And otherwise left and right uh Conservative Libertarian we need a a platform by Which we can have these conversations Some of them are tough you know I'm I Have different perspectives on a lot of Things uh than you and you from me but I Am disappointed in any media that will
Not intentionally and with Vigor promote and offer plat form to Opposing views and that is why I'm Deeply deeply concerned period And by The way I think that is same on I Shouldn't say that the right has offered More Invitations I would say than the left Now I think that's also pragmatic Because they want someone to be Provocative you know um but I I I do Think the same circumstance appears on Both we we tune in to what feeds uh our Own U need for affirmation and and I Think that's dangerous and I think That's why I'm grateful to be speaking With you right now I think we need more Of this we need to do in a thoughtful Manner I'd like to dive into you know Tough subjects too because that's what Makes all of us better and I do not see Any platform left or right offering that Opportunity right now at a time where I Think we need it more than ever yeah Well the thing is is that the the YouTube ecosystem that that you had some Success with communicating with actually Emerged And then was shaped as a classic liberal Conservative alternative to the Legacy Media and I mean emerged and was shaped I mean both of those very specifically It emerged because none of that was Happening in the Legacy Media and then
It was shaped because commentators we'll Take Joe Rogan for example who were not Only left leaning but clearly Progressive were tilted hard in the Conservative libertarian Direction as a Consequence of their EXP experiences Attempting to engage in straightforward Conversation and that's happened to Virtually all the podcasters that I know And so because they encountered the same Monolith that you encountered and like This YouTube example let's D dive into This this is a very unpleasant topic as Well but we might as well hit some Unpleasant topics so a number of my Videos were taken down now YouTube had Left me alone for years which I was Quite stunned by um they would slap on Warning now and then when I dared to Discuss such things as climate change um But by and large they left me alone and I didn't have a lot of evidence that There were any Shenanigans behind the Scenes but um that changed when I Started to question the trans narrative And that's something that I'm very Actually erate about in a very Fundamental manner um not least because Yes I want to hear and I I'd love I'd Love to engage in this I I'd love to Hear your take and I'd like to share Mine my take is that uh the surgical Butchers and their enablers have been Sterilizing and mutilating children with
The aiding and abetting of the Progressives and the medical community And I know this isn't an opinion as far As I'm concerned I knew perfectly well In 2016 when I objected to Canada's bill C16 that mandated pronoun use I told the Bloody Senate that if they went forward Without legislation that they would Cause a psychogenic epidemic of sexual Confusion among young women and that's Exactly what's happened and that has Been extended to the point where not Only is there an epidemic of sexual Confusion and the reason it's young Women is because young women have been For 350 years the group prone to that Kind of psychogenic epidemic the Clinical evidence for that is Crystal Clear you saw that with cutting and you Saw it with anorexia and you saw it with Bia and multiple personality disorder And Freudian hysteria etc etc that Clinical evidence is absolutely clear And that extended to the point where the Treatment being offered to these Confused young women was Surgical and Sterilizing and and I knew the data that Suggested that that was all well and Good because they were at risk of Suicide was utter nonsense and Pathological lies and of course that's Been revealed in the last six months as European country after European country
Has desisted from the gender affirming Care path has theyve been forced to Recognize that the evidence that Supports that pathway is not only Lacking but opposite and England Yesterday the UK announced that they Would ban gender they would ban po So-called puberty blockers for use with Miners you know and you could be sure They did that in the face of substantial Opposition well I'll tell you that's one Mob you don't want to go up against That's for sure and so is it is it is it Your contention that so so in this case You you believe government policy has Actually created sexual confusion Amongst I don't believe it that's I know For sure that that's not and not just Sexual confusion such that something Approximating 25% particularly of young Women which were were not the trans Individuals to begin with because that Was all men before this psychogenic Epidemic emerged such that 25% of young Women are now confused in their or in Their most in their most fundamental Orientation and questioning the most Fundamental element of their identity Now if now if and if one is 18 so so I'm Just so I can clarify do you believe as Long as one is the age of majority and Can make an adult decision can they do You oppose them making that decision at A certain age or is it just below that
Age that you take exception because That's well I would say now given what's Happened that I I believe the right Thing for our society to do is to stop Gender transformation surgery at any age Because look let me let me tell you why I believe that I mean I my my general Attitude is that people can go to hell In a hand basket in whatever way they See fit once they're adults and I Already mean that because I would rather Allow for even pathological variance in Individual expression than have a Heavy-handed government making those Sorts of decisions because I think That's even more dangerous it's not like People can't can't go off the rails with Extraordinary uh what would you say Intent but that's not the point but we We wandered down the sex transformation Road starting in the early 1960s and Here we are and so I think that as a Phenomena it's revealed itself as so Pathologically dangerous that it's not a Pathway that we should walk down so now I' I'd be willing to have a discussion About that because I think the issue of Consent as a um as an adult is relevant But that doesn't mean that as an adult You can just consent to any old medical Procedure you know there are people who Are now requesting double genitalia for Example or or uh what would they call They call that the Kendall look where
There's no genitalia at all and you know At some point I'm starting to think Maybe the surgeons who are profiting by Um exploiting such I would say pathology Need to be stopped in their tracks Because at some point it becomes not Surgery at all but a form of barbarism And I think we're well past that point Anyways to make this more Concrete the a number of the videos that Were taken down on my channel were Videos let's say that involved Helen Joyce for example who's a perfectly Credible commentator who's worked for The economist forever who's a mainstream Journalist whose analysis of this Situation is spot on and who's very Intelligent and now the reason I making Something of this is because I the worst Experiences I've had on the S censorship Side have always 100% without exception Come from the progressive left and one Of the things that's appalled me in my Discussions with the left in general and I've talked to dozens of congressmen and Senators and I think it is a reflection Of this monolith that you described is That I haven't been able to get a single Democrat ever to answer a Straightforward question and this Included RFK which is when does the left Go too Far Well that's a hard question to answer
Well I don't think it's hard maybe it's Like maybe it's like pornography you Kind of know it when you see it um I Think it is like that I think it is like That to some degree it is like that to Some degree and it's also harder to ID Because because I could frame it the Same way the other way too you know Jordan when when has the right gone too Far and I think it happens no no Nationalism that's the line yeah and and I think you this conversation is provoc In a in a in a way that I love you know It gets back to this who are they who is The right who is the left who where is This where's that coming from uh how is That Articulated uh who is the defining Characteristic of the right and left who You know who's making these decisions I Don't quite know anymore I I do want to Say this just so everybody's aware you Know I come my personal philosophy is I've never walked in your shoes you've Never walked in mine I've never walked In the shoes of a black man a uh an Asian woman I've never walked in the Shoes of a trans person of a gay man or Woman I'll never know that and I've Always felt that if it doesn't hurt your Neighbor doesn't hurt anybody else even If it hurts yourself uh that you should Be free in a society like both here in The US and Canada want should be able to
Do what they wish when they've reached An age where we believe at least as a Society that they can make those Decisions and I do has see conflict and Sometimes even Hypocrisy uh from a right that feels so Deeply about freedom and liberty and uh Keeping government out of one's personal Affairs yet delving often into the very Most personal affairs of so many human Beings and um I I this is provocative to Me and the same when you ask how far how Far is too far you know that's I would Be and that's that's but that's a Thoughtful conversation I would be Inclined to agree with that the only the Only codicil I have to that now is first Of all like I said I I believe that People should in the main be not only Allowed but encourage to find their way Forward right and so we put minimal Restrictions on people of age but I also Believe that the medical I I truly Believe this de I believe that the Medical community now deserves a Nurmberg moment I have not seen anything In my entire professional life on the Therapeutic front or the medical front That I regard as as even in the same League of barbarism as what's happening With the Trans phenomena and I think Because of that I think that the Surgeons have forone their right to even Offer such services to adults
Interesting and I you know what what you Provoking me is this recognition that Left to their own devices and profit Doesn't matter if it's politics it Doesn't matter if it's surgeons Therapist you name it there will always Be people who take advantage of others Uh if they can make money doing so and I Think in a way that's kind of the Overarching maybe umbrella of our Conversation right now is how do you Discern you what is just what is right What is reasonable and how do you Discern who is operating authentically And who is not and I think we are now Facing this great challenge of what is Real and and what is reasonable and and Who is making money from it and a lot of People are making money off a lot of us Jordan you know this as well as anybody Um looking out for themselves and not Recognizing perhaps the tragedies that They were leaving in their wake and I'm Not assigning that to what you just said I'm just saying that I think it's fair To explore that in a lot of categories Right yeah well I well I think that's Actually something the the libertarian Right and the left could agree on I mean One of the things that's really struck Me is that the the Libertarians are Terrified of big government and the Progressives are terrified of big Corporations and they don't seem to
Realize that they're both terrified of Big and and there is something there is Something very uh terrifying about Organizations that get large enough so That they can engage in regulatory cap Capture and we're seeing that happen at An unforeseen scale especially with Regard I would say to the tech companies And I'd probably put Google like Foremost on that list no and I see and You know you know me I you I see this Every we've had this conversation about How money is buys access and buys Influence and it buys policy and it buys Ownership in politics as it does in any Industry and I'm as the only one as you Know who doesn't accept pack money or Lobbyist money and member money and Doesn't have a leadership pack I'm one Of the very few that hasn't been subject To that I don't even get invited to the Dinners where they hand you the checks Let alone have those conversations uh And that's how this system works by the Way that goes back to my contention it's Not a democratic thing a republican Thing this is a systemic thing uh that Though big whether it's big money Whether it's Big Industry whether it's Just big mobilization of course big wins In Washington period and there in lies The great struggle I think in democracy Right now is how do you give voice to a Minority that deserves and needs to be
Heard and it's not always the same Minority it's it's Categorical well so this is probably Exacerbated by a more recent phenomena So if we're thinking about this at the Most General level of analysis one of The consequences of the virtualization Of the world is that the arena for Gigantism has expanded Substantially right so because you you Because we're all interconnected so There's a high proclivity for the winner To take all right that's the famous Paro Conundrum is that it's always a minority Of people that control the majority of The money it's also a minority of people Who do most of the productive work then What that means is that the larger the Playing field the the the the number of Players doesn't increase but the size of The players increases as the playing Field increases and so one of the Unintended consequences of the Technological Revolution and the Virtualization of society could well be That the size of the giants has perhaps Geometrically increased and that's very Unlikely to slow down like it isn't even Obvious to me at the moment that the key Players on the international stage are Necessarily Nations anymore they are to Some degree individuals well right Exactly indidual exactly Elon Elon Elon Musk has not just not just more Capital
Than imaginable but because of the Position of x uh the extraordinary reach That it was unimaginable even just a Decade ago and the fact that we have Individuals with the resources to Actually send spaceships to the Moon uh We are no longer living in just a nation State Dynamic uh we are going to this is Like James Bond kind of stuff you know You very well and how do you you know And that and that will be increasingly I Think one of the great challenges of the 21st and then 22nd century is uh is the Individual versus the state absolutely Because of technology and access it's The land of the Kings again and so and You know I don't I don't mind really the Fact that individuals are capable of Generating for themselves that much Influence what I what I'm concerned About is when that influence turns into Regulatory power and so you know for a Long time I would say I regarded Google As uh Force for good especially when They still had their motto you know Don't be evil which they dropped about 5 Years ago coincidentally But once once that once that reach turns Into the capacity to use that reach to Further that reach then things start to To go astray and it's not obvious what Can be done about that on the on the Political front competition I can tell You this our conversation started and
Probably will end with my singular Contention the absence of competition is Destructive to just about anything that We consider to be important and that is True whether it is in big Tech that is True in politics we are increasingly Actually diminishing the ability to Compete now you would argue that in the New era with technology and podcasts and Platforms and in the palm of your hand That is actually the great equalizer but In a strange way it has actually further Concentrated power in ways that I think Are very very destructive and we should Be promoting competition we should be Promoting it in in Industry we should be Promoting it in Tech we should be Promoting voting it in politics it makes Things better it provides better value Improves quality and most of all allows Human beings to make better choices but The absence of it is going to be Terribly destructive that is true in Media that's through this whole Conversation competition Ideas the fact is we don't have a market In this great day and age with so many Platforms available to inspire and Promote and nurture a competition of Ideas we have less of it now than ever There may not be a debate in the 2024 Presidential election Jordan it's it's a It's Preposterous we are not having the Left and right are not debate in
Congress we do not debate we have these Performances that we call hearings we Are not debating we are not promoting Competition of ideas or industry and Therein lies the greatest challenge we Face and it is completely fixable except For the fact that those of great power Of wealth and connection will Continuously have the ears and the Levers of the politicians and I would Also go back to campaign Finance reform Because I do believe that could be the Lynch pin in changing this Dynamic and Changing the reward system because it Doesn't happen on its own it doesn't Happen on its own we all have to we all Have to plant the seeds and water the Plants and then only then can we Harvest So thank you Jordan for the opportunity To share a conversation very good to Talk to you and so for everybody Watching and listening thank you very Much for your time and attention you Know most of you that I'll continue this Conversation with Dean Phillips on The Daily wire plus side uh in any case Thank you very much for your time and Attention everyone to the film crew here Um in acon Ohio that's where I am today For facilitating this that's much Appreciated and for the daily wire plus People who make this possible um that's Also that's also valuable and much Appreciated thanks Dean it was very good
Talking to you thank you Jordan be [Music] Well
