The Science Behind Why Relationships Last Or Fail – Drs John & Julie Gottman

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Season 5 Episode 4

What makes for a loving relationship that lasts? For over 40 years Drs. John and Julie Gottman have devoted their life to the research and practice of fostering healthy, long-lasting relationships. Through studying thousands of couples, publishing over 200 academic articles, more than 40 books on the topic and co-founding the Gottman’s Institute, John and Julie have created interventions to change the way that couples relate to each other to help people succeed in the future of their relationships. In the conversation, John and Julie give me a masterclass in everything there is to know about building long lasting relationships, we cover the four key reasons why relationships fail, communication strategies, rituals to cultivate deeper connection and their latest book The Seven Day Love Prescription which distills their work into a seven-day action plan for deeper intimacy. Enjoy 🙂

00:00 Intro
02:06 Why do we need research about love and relationships?
04:37 Research methodology for analysing couples
06:42 What are the things that predict a relationship will be happy?
07:52 The 4 reasons why relationships fail
16:04 Strategies to overcome anger
18:35 What can people do to overcome conflict in relationships
24:30 Why logic vs emotion is a false dichotomy
33:10 Common mistakes men make in relationships
38:12 Your research into LGBTQ+ relationships
40:18 The biggest difference between men and women in relationships
43:40 Decision making in relationships
48:01 Rituals of connection
51:01 Relationship reviews
56:35 What is the function of marriage?
01:07:31 Is there an ideal age gap?
01:10:44 Relationships therapy and pre-commitment counselling
01:14:12 The love prescription formula
01:26:06 Book writing

🔗 CONNECT WITH JOHN & JULIE

📕 The Seven Day Love Prescription –
📱 The Gottman Card Decks App –
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🎥 YouTube Channel – @TheGottmanInstitute

🔗 CONNECT WITH ALI

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📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED
A Two Factor Method For Predicting When A Couple Will Divorve – Dr John Gottman and Prof Robert Levinson –
The Man’s Guide To Women by Drs John & Julie Gottman –
Processing A Regrettable Incident Booklet –
How To not die alone by Logan Ury –
The Eight Conversations That Matter Most In Relationships –
Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski –

📄SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT

Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation –

🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST

Deep Dive is the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators and other inspiring people to uncover the philosophies, strategies and tools that help us live happier, healthier and more productive lives.

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In a successful couple here's what they Do the minute they sense that they're Getting flooded one of them will call For a break and say when they'll come Back then come back at the designated Time when you're calmer and the Conversation will look like you've just Had a brain transplant it might already Have come across some of the research That the gotmans have done they are World famous researchers in the field of Relationships and divorce and marital Satisfaction a lot of people will Apologize almost immediately and that Doesn't work either and the reason is Because you haven't heard your partners Experience of the fight so you don't Really know what you're apologizing for There's a bunch of super interesting Research they've done in the love lab Where they analyze the interactions Between different couples and they use Those to predict divorce rates further Down the line now that we know what can Create a successful relationship based On the couples that we studied and there Were over 3 000 of them we now can help Help couples succeed in the future in Their relationship genuinely these guys Are some of the most famous people in The world when it comes to the field of Relationship research and so it was so Exciting during this conversation in the Conversation we talk a lot about all of

These topics like how to sustain love in A relationship what are the things that Predict divorce in married couples what Are the practical things that we can do In our romantic lives to be more Intentional and effective in the way That we show up in our relationships Very close friendships your Relationships with your children and Your love relationships if the Relationships were high in quality and The marriage really made them happy they Would live 10 to 15 years longer At the moment according to the YouTube Analytics 81 of you who are watching This on YouTube have not yet hit the Subscribe button and so if you're for Example in the now 81 of people who are Watching this on YouTube but who are not Subscribed to the channel I would love It if you could do so and would be Awesome to get that number down to 50 And it would be cool to get like 50 50 Sub non-sub ratio just just for fun so Guys thank you so much for coming on the Podcast like absolutely fantastic having You here been a long time admirer of Your guys's work and and in particular Your book uh eight dates is something That my girlfriend and I are going Through at the moment Um so yeah thank you thank you for Everything that you've done in the world Of kind of being more intentional about

Relationships so I'm super excited to Have this conversation oh thank you so Much Ellie we're really happy to have The opportunity right This is gonna be fun so um I'd love to Start off by addressing I guess You know a lot of people listening to This or if you click on this in our in The podcast player or on YouTube might Be thinking you know it's a bit intense Talking about relationships and writing Books about relationships and aren't Relationships and love supposed to be More of a instinctual thing where it Kind of comes naturally to people why Why do we need all this over analysis And overthinking about relationships That's a great question uh first of all Because all that good romance uh Beautiful you know stars in the sky Moon Above uh is all about chemistry it's all About uh hormonal attraction to begin With uh and then getting to know one Another and as the relationship deepens Up come the patterns that typically People may have absorbed from their Childhood or from other relationships That they then Um use to work out conflicts to develop Friendship and so on uh with their Partner and a lot of times uh what they Do doesn't work and it creates sometimes A lot of frustration pain anger and so On and uh John in his Brilliance being a

Pioneer back in the 70s figured out Slowly but surely over the years what Really makes relationships work work and What unfortunately makes them fail So this was research I did with Robert Levinson right who's a psychology Professor at UC Berkeley and I did that Work together Right and so uh now that we know uh what Can create a successful relationship not Based on us by any means but based on uh The couples that we studied and there Were over 3 000 of them we now can help People by uh creating interventions Which we've done to change how people Relate to one another if it's not Working in order to really help couples Succeed in the future in their Relationship right hmm How how do you analyze these three Thousand couples like what's the what's The research methodology here Well it's it's really very simple uh What we did was first of all get a very Broad sample representative sample of The in the places we did the research in The cities and rural areas we did the Research and then we had couples just Come into the lab after being apart for Eight hours talk about how their day Went we videotaped them And uh while they were talking we had Synchronized physiological data we Collected from them sort of measuring

Heart rate respiration blood velocity Things like that and uh then they talked About an area of conflict that they Hadn't resolved and then we showed them Their tapes and they let us know what They were feeling every second And we interviewed them about the History of their relationship and so on And then you know for the first 25 years Bob Levinson and I didn't help anybody We just tried to find out Are there masters of relationships are There disasters how are they different You know and the answer was uh those Differences that we discovered between The Masters and the disasters actually Replicated over time and you know we Spent a Dozen Years studying gay and Lesbian couples in this using the same Methods and and looking across the whole Life course from couples dating up Through couples in their in their late 80s Um so that's the research That Bob and I did before Julie and I Got together and she's a very Experienced and talented therapist and So we started designing interventions Based on all that ability to predict so Well the future of a relationship And then tested the intervention and now Almost 50 years later we have a set of Interventions that really do help Couples

Fantastic so I guess Um that kind of begs the question like What are the things that predict whether A relationship is going to work or be Happy and what are the things that sort Of Herald the disaster and in a Relationship Now one of the things that Bob and I Found right away is we just looked at How positive people were when they Talked to each other how affectionate How much they laughed together Um interest in one another curiosity Versus hostility anger you know Contempt sadness and disgust and we just Took a ratio of how many seconds of Positive the motion was were there Compared to negative emotion and we Discovered that the Masters even in Conflict had five times as much positive Emotion as negative Whereas the disasters that ratio of Positive to negative average 0.8 is just A little bit more negativity and Positivity so that was one of our first Discoveries and then we asked are there Some negative things that are more Predictive than others and we came up With the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse And Julie can explain what that is if You want okay sure Um so these are the great big predictors Uh that can predict with over 90 percent Accuracy six years down the road where

Are you going to be you're going to be Together happily with your partner Unhappily or will you already be Separated and divorced so the first one Is criticism and all of us are familiar With that one there's no such thing as Constructive criticism none so when You're what do you mean yeah when your Boss tries to critically uh Tell you feedback that's not a good Thing so what criticism means is blaming A problem between you on a character Flaw of your partner so some examples of That are you're so lazy you wouldn't Think of cleaning up the kitchen why are You so uh irresponsible you're always Postponing how long it takes to pay the Bills you know what's happening with you What's wrong with you it's one of the Great criticisms how are you supposed to Answer that you know it's saying you in General are wrong so those are Criticisms and they hurt and the natural Response to that is the second Horseman Called defensiveness and defensiveness We're familiar with too there's two Types one is whining like I did two pay The bills on time or counter attack oh Yeah well when was the last time you Took the car in for repair you know it's A counter attack So that's defensiveness we have Criticism defensiveness the third is Really the sulfuric acid for a

Relationship it's called contempt and What we mean by contempt is its Criticism too but from a place of moral Superiority so it includes some scorn Some disgust it's often expressed Through sarcasm Um like oh yeah I'm sure you picked up The tickets ha you know contempt uh is Also name-calling all those horrible Names when we get very angry that we'll Call somebody could be mockery also ooh You're so scared you know that kind of Stuff So contempt is horrible and it not only Is the strongest predictor of Relationship demise Contempt also destroy raise the immune System of the listener we discovered That in 15 minutes of conflict the Number of times a listener heard Something contemptuous predicted how Many infectious illnesses they would Have in the coming years right isn't That amazing so the immune system Suppresses of corer fights off viruses Colds flus tumors right and the people Who experience more contempt got sicker Over time so that was scary finally the Fourth Horseman is what we call Stonewalling and stonewalling is when One partner completely shuts down Absolutely gives no response to the Person pretends they're not even there We'll sit there but not give any nod of

The head anything verbal and that's Really related to another Finding of Ours about Physiological flooding which John can Explain but that what we call Stonewalling turning into a stone wall In the middle of a conversation is our Fourth Horseman right so the the Physiology was very predictive and uh And what we found was that when people's Heart rate gets above 100 beats a minute Or if you're an athlete 80 beats a Minute we start secreting our two stress Hormones cortisol and adrenaline and That shuts down the ability to listen People repeat themselves they think They're being more persuasive when they Ill instead of you know talking quietly They you know they really escalate their Behavior and they can't listen very well They can't take in any new information So the physiology is very important Because once people are secreting those Two stress hormones they you know the Conversation might as well be over Because it nobody makes any advance they Don't get creative as problem solvers And so on yeah another word for this is Fight or flight And I'm sure you know your listeners Have heard of that that's what we're Talking about So when you're facing your partner It feels like you're facing a

Saber-toothed tiger So in that context let's say you're in The middle of uh I don't know a a an Argument with your partner and you're Finding yourself feeling those triggers Of fight or flights what do you do in That context In order to succeed or in order to fail Which one to leave Let's say let's say both what does Success and what does fail look like Like what what are the kind of options That we have in this in this context Okay so fail looks like staying there in The conversation when you're in fight or Flight uh and what happens is you Escalate you get louder you repeat Yourself you know Ad nauseam uh you Start to move into more criticism more Contempt you can't think straight you Don't hear your partner at all so Nothing you say is a response to your Partner you're just yelling your own Point of view maybe maybe even getting Physical in the worst cases in a Successful couple here's what they do The minute they sense that they're Getting flooded in fight or flight one Of them will call for a break and and Say when they ask for a break when They'll come back to talk about the Conversation you know that topic again So they'll say something like honey I've Got to take a break I'll be back in an

Hour then let's talk again That way they don't leave the other Person feeling abandoned and not knowing If they're ever going to talk about it Again then when the partners separate Into separate quarters uh they each do Something that is self-soothing Not think about the fight because if They think about it they'll stay Escalated but do something else distract Yourself read a magazine a book listen To music meditation go for a run you Know all kinds of things you can do to Self-soothe take a bath and then come Back at the designated time when you're Calmer and a way to tell if you're Calmer is take your heart rate and if Your heart rate is back down to normal Then you're good if it's not back go Back to your partner anyway and ask for More time And give a second time it'll return Until you can talk calmly with one Another and the conversation will look Like you've just had a brain transplant Hmm I guess I guess we've all been in cases where in The moment Like someone might be listening to this Or have read one of the books and then But in in the moment when you're in that Adrenaline cortisol State your kind of Rational thinking goes out the window

And you almost like forget that oh I Should I should do this kind of thing I Should take a breath I should pause do You guys have any any strategies that People can use to almost like recognize Her in that state or like in in that Moment to override the Nash the I guess Default instinctive emotional response To continue to lash out Mm-hmm yeah you know that's such a good Question ali Um what I ask my clients to do and what I try and practice myself is Um pay attention when I am first getting Escalated or flooded it's really Important for me to know what are the Signals inside my body that tell me I'm Starting to get flooded so you know You're not going to maybe be able to Recognize all this stuff the first time But pay attention some people will have Their jog it tight their breathing it Shallow their chests feel tight or they May feel kicked in the gut maybe their Fists start clenching you know there Will be signals each person uniquely has When they're starting to get flooded and What are yours what are mine yeah oh I Never get flooded honey that's such a Laugh okay so mine are typically Um I'll feel heat rising from my belly And I'll feel very very very hot Throughout the trunk of my body it's Like you know my temperature's just gone

Up 20 degrees how about yours Yeah I think uh I think for me Um when I find myself repeating myself And I know I'm gonna I'm gonna get Flooded and for me it's a constriction In my throat that lets me know that I'm Getting flooded when this gets tight Here and I know oh boy you know I should Take a break right yeah right that's my Signal and we've had many opportunities To practice It's a very positive way of looking at It yeah I think I think for me it's when Like as you were describing that for me I think it's when I find myself In debate mode where I'm just sort of Imploring the other person to just like Surely you could like surely you can see That you're just being unreasonable here Or you know that kind of stuff and like Oh hang on I love it surely you could See like what's the matter with you are You so dumb that you can't see this I Love it I'm gonna practice that one Really you can see the logic of my Position I'm so smart That's Um on that note Um actually I've I've I've got a Question about this but before we before We go there we we talked about the four Horsemen let's say someone's listening To this or watching this and they're Thinking oh damn you know I'm I've

Definitely got some of one or more of Those in my relationship What are the actions that someone can Take if they recognize that their Relationship is sort of falling into one Of these four horsemen well one of the Best things uh that you can do Um we call processing a regrettable Incident Now here's what that means this is a Particular Intervention when you've had A really bad fight where some of those Four horsemen have thundered through the Conversation Um it's really important to go back with Your partner and talk about what Happened in the in the way that you Communicated what went wrong in the way You communicated and then apologize for It and we have a five-step process for This where each person names their Feelings that they had during the Regrettable incident then they narrate Their point of view about what Transpired and needless to say there's Always two points of view and they could Feel like they're on opposite planets But they're both valid they're both Right so each one presents their point Of view the other one summarizes what They just heard the partner say and Gives a few words of validation like I Get it I can see how you would have felt That way and then third they talk about

What may have gotten triggered for them And triggers mean feelings that come up For you during a fight or regrettable Incident that are the same feelings you May have had long before this Relationship that may have started in Childhood or in former relationship And those in can include things like Abandonment rejection feeling judged Feeling frightened those kinds of old Feelings you've been carrying inside you Your whole life perhaps so you talk About those triggers and what stories go With those from your past you share one Of those So your partner really understands Better The scars that you carry inside from old Experiences uh and can try to avoid Triggering those and then the fifth step Is to talk about one thing you can do Differently and one thing your partner Can do differently to avoid something Like this from happening again That's how you process a regrettable Incident How how long afterwards should you would You recommend waiting to process a Regrettable incident are we talking like The same day or like in a couple days From now like what what's the time Period are we thinking Well it can be Um whenever as long as it's not

Immediately afterwards so some people Won't know they're supposed to do this And then they'll go back and process Something 20 years later 15 years later The way that you know you need to Process it is that it still festers in Your mind when you think about it you Know you can still feel the awful Feelings of that event that means you Need to process it but with that said You have to be very calm when you sit Down and process and I like to tell People imagine that you're in the upper Balcony of a theater after act one of a Play that play down on stage was the two Of you fighting and you're talking to Your partner about what happened during Act one that's the kind of calmness you Need to have before you talk Nice is there a To what extent is there utility in Talking things out at the time Um like you know we've just had a had an Argument I'm kind of upset she's kind of Upset Do we just like continue for the rest of The day as if all right cool let's park This and then carry on with our day do We kind of get time apart like how do we Deal with it like let's say that evening Or that day before we are both in that State of calm to be able to discuss it Maybe tomorrow or the day after Uh okay so can you talk about it

Immediately afterwards is that what You're asking It's not yeah what do you mean while the Emotions are still like still they're Not quite at that calm level where you Can discuss it fully calmly I wouldn't do it I wouldn't do it Because it's so easy to slide into the Old argument again you'll slide right Back into the fight Um and also a lot of people will Apologize almost immediately and that Doesn't work either and the reason is Because you haven't heard your partner's Experience of the fight enough to know How your behavior impacted them so you Don't really know what you're Apologizing for until you've heard the Story of your partner's experience and You've been able to share yours too Because usually both people in some way Are responsible for what happened not Always but often That's great Um already got a very actionable point I'm going to take away from this Conversation so thank you When when we were talking earlier we we We kind of joked about like me being Like uh hey can't you just see how how Wrong you are and it there's There's a bit of a I've I find Hmm Emotions versus logic

I wanted to talk about that when and and And and I guess you know one of the Things I wanted to ask was um you guys Have a book The Man's Guide to women and It's very unfashionable these days to Even begin to suggest that Men Are from Mars and women are from Venus and men Are like this and women are like that Kind of thing Um but one of the things that often Well certainly in in my relationship and Most that I know there's there seems to Be this Um kind of balancing act between one Party wanting to be very logical about Like okay X LED to y letter to Z Therefore ABC and the other party being I guess more in touch with their Emotions how do you guys kind of Navigate the whole logic versus emotions Territory I guess in particular when it Comes to Um regrettable incidents arguments Fights whatever we want to call it Yeah um You know the Logic versus emotion kind of thing is is A false debate because you can be very Logical and still be emotional and in Fact We need our emotions to problem solve Creatively we need to know what we feel So we have to We have to get in touch with our

Intuitions So just because we're emotional doesn't Mean we can't be logical as well at the Same time so that's a false dichotomy Between emotional and rational so we can Be very rational and still be emotional It's very important that we listen to The emotional part Of What what our partners Perceptions are and how they make our Partner feel because if we don't listen To the emotions then they won't feel Understood they won't feel respected and So we have to develop that uh competence To really see and perceive emotions And if we ignore emotions The repair we try to make uh during Conflict is not going to work if it's All very cognitive and you know Intellectual and we're not really taking Into account our feelings and our Partners feelings we won't solve the Problem it just won't work so emotions Have to be understood recognized and Validated we have to see the logic of The emotion for our partner let me add Something Um so the intervention that we are Talking about processing a regrettable Incident we have a booklet for that a Little booklet that guides you through This five-step process I just described And the first step has feelings and it's

A list of feelings all the different Kinds of feelings there's about I don't Know 50 60 of them that are listed and Each person goes through the list saying Out loud any of the feelings on the list That they had during the incident and The thing that's interesting is we've Never ever had anyone man or woman not Mention a feeling you know so I think You know there's also this myth that men Are more logical than women and women Are more emotional it's absolutely a lie It's just not true at all men have just As many feelings as women Um and it's interesting because in our Culture we have been socialized uh in Different ways so for women it's not Okay for women to express anger that's Not okay they'll be called the b word Right if they express anger they're not Just angry they're a bad person in this Way for men they're not really allowed To express the more vulnerable feelings Like fear worry Sadness you know anxiety nope that's not Okay anger's fine but nothing else is So we have to realize that all of us Whatever gender we are or mixed gender We are uh feeling beings We all have emotions it's just a matter Of recognizing them and naming All right we're just going to take a Quick break from the podcast to Introduce our sponsor which is huel now

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Then head over to brilliant.org forward Slash deep dive and the first 200 people To click that link which will be in the Show notes and in the video description As well will get 20 off the annual Premium subscription so thank you so Much brilliant for sponsoring this Episode and let's get right back to the Podcast do you find Like for example your work uh your book The Man's Guide to women Is that Surely that's that's not Exactly identical to the woman's guide To men Um there there would be different advice That I guess you would give to men and You'd give to and and you'd give to give To women so I guess like What I'm asking is What are some of the kind of Men's specific advice that you would Give let's say if I was if if I was Asking you hey you know what are the Common mistakes that men tend to make in Relationships and then we can talk later About what are the common mistakes that Women tend to make in relationships what Is what does that divide look like You see Um well first of all men know that women Have a cycle right so they have a Menstrual cycle through the first You know I don't know 25 years maybe of

Their adult life and Um that's happening regularly every Month Usually and I don't think men understand So well uh what happens to women when All those hormones are flooding their Bodies from that menstrual cycle what Can happen Um there's more fluid accumulated in the Body due to hormonal changes and that Fluid affects all of the body the brain Included and the woman typically will Become more sensitive so she'll be more Sensitive emotionally she may take Things a little harder than during the Time when she's not about to have her Period for example Um so you've got to watch that kind of Swing of moods Um and Pay attention to that and not Necessarily believe that some of the Stuff that she says a few days before Her period is exactly how she feels Because it may not be it's going to vary Over time Another thing is to realize that Um women Are basically they're the custodians of The relationship So women typically see ways to improve The relationship they're always watching For is this a good relationship is it Loving enough is it kind enough is there

Enough friendship is there enough Intimacy am I being listened to Etc uh and so they'll bring up issues More commonly than men men can Coast on Yeah this is this is fine this is okay But women tend not to and so they're Going to bring up issues more regularly Just to make sure the relationship stays On track And that can make men feel like whatever I do it's not enough You know I just God I try and try and Try and it's never enough and that's one Of the things women have to be sensitive To in men so men are trying very hard to Be the best husbands they can be the Best fathers they can be and they're Working hard at it and sometimes they May not understand what a woman needs For example if a woman comes home Stressed from her work The man thinks as he listens to her that He should offer her a solution to Whatever she stressed about wrong that's Going to feel condescending to the woman Because it's another way of saying You're not smart enough to figure out a Solution so let me give you one right That's the message she may take from it The thing that men need to do in that Situation is to not offer Solutions Unless the woman has specifically asked For that and instead Just listen to what she's saying try to

Feel a little bit of what she's Expressing ask her questions like what's The most upsetting part about this for You or help me understand how this made You feel so anxious I want I want to Really get inside that and know that And then give words of empathy and Empathy is going to look like no wonder You felt so angry wow yeah I would have Been upset too that sounds terrible so You're really stepping into the Partner's World emotionally and hanging Out in there with her Empathizing with her so she doesn't feel So alone with those feelings not feeling Alone is the big stress reducer not Getting a solution to a problem It's not feeling alone You mentioned earlier when we were Talking that recently you've done a lot Of research on gay and lesbian couples I wonder what's been some of the Surprising things that you found from That research I guess compared to Heterosexual couples Yeah one of the things that we that we Discovered is that uh gay and lesbian Couples are a lot less defensive Um when their partner presents a point Of view then uh male female Relationships They have more of a sense of humor their Uh they're less critical and less Defensive so we have a lot to learn from

Those relationships uh you know we think Well you know Since you know they're they're the Minority their relationships you know They're not the the majority of Relationships then there must be Something wrong with them something Defective we found in fact that many Ways they were Superior to heterosexual Relationships there wasn't as much Competition and Dominance struggling for you know like Who's going to win this argument it was Much more equal and you know much more Understanding more and and they had a Better sense of humor about themselves Uh so it wasn't it wasn't as much War The way it is between men and women and You know and they didn't get into these Standoffs they would you know they Basically would say oh well that's an Interesting point of view let's talk About your point of view and you know Here's what I think you're saying and is That right you know so they were just Much better communicators than you know The Battle of the Sexes which typifies a Lot of heterosexual uh relationships the Standoff you know where there's a power Struggle they didn't have as much of That and and that was really interesting To discover one of the biggest biggest Biggest most important differences Between men and women in heterosexual

Relationships it's about sex The biggest difference is that women Need emotional closeness in order to be Open sexually Men Typically don't they may use sex as a Way to feel emotionally close Man let me explain that As one can imagine women have a history Of thousands of years of being raped Sexually abused hurt through sex And We feel it in our bones even if we Haven't experienced it ourselves we Don't feel safe in the world We do not you can take a room of people Give them an example of you're walking Into a underground garage how many of You feel afraid almost all the women Will raise their hands almost none of The men will I mean it's just wow it's really a huge Discrepancy so when a woman is being Most vulnerable which is typically During sexual intimacy she really needs To feel safe Particularly if she's had any kind of Sexual abuse in her background and we Know that at the minimum one out of four Women by the age of 18 has experienced Sexual abuse or molestation and it's Those are the only ones who report it It's probably a higher percentage than That so women need to feel emotionally

Close in order to be sexually open and Men we need as women we need to Understand that for men a lot of times You know men may feel like oh it's too Childlike to just ask for a cuddle ask For a hug So will be manly and we'll go for sex Which gives us you know all the touch And all the hugging and you know all That contact that we need as well as Pleasure so Um women need to understand that uh Their men are looking for emotional Closeness through sex And to be as giving as they can Yeah so on that note Um you often hear a like in in Cosmo Magazine and stuff you know that the Classic advice For men is Hey if you you know if you do the dishes Then she's going to be more open to To having sex you know that that kind of Direction of stuff to what extent is There is there truth in that is is that Related to this idea of it it signals Emotional intimacy kind of thing Yeah absolutely true Um it's uh You know in general if if uh housework Is not just women's work if you're Sharing in the housework and child care Especially especially child care and you Know we need fathers to really be much

More involved with their children Because it's good for both sons and Daughters fathers make a unique Contribution To the intellectual and Social Development of the both sons and Daughters so that sharing you know the Sort of everyday maintenance of the home With women means that women aren't doing A second shift when they come home from Work they have another shift they have To do all the housework and child care And all of that and that usually really Separates men and women uh one study Done at UCLA at this loan center found That with dual career couples in Los Angeles they spend less than 10 percent Of an evening in the same room and they Talk to each other around 35 minutes a Week Mostly about errands So you know there a lot of these Marriages you know intimacy is not being Maintained the relationship doesn't come First so if both men and women are Involved with children and they're Involved with the house uh then it Doesn't feel to a woman like she has to Do a second shift when she comes home From work and he's more of a partner and Again it gets to back to what Julie was Saying you know women need to feel close And to feel safe and then the situation Can be erotic as long as there's not a

Big to-do list in her mind and like the Dog needs to be taken for a walk and you Know the kids you know kids are asking For milk read them read me another story Mommy you know they're both in it Together and so sex becomes a whole Different kind of thing it's really the Expression of the love that's there it's Not another chore that the woman has to Do To what extent is it important that a Relationship have a Kind of CEO and c-o-o kind of or like you know Captain and first mate or like leader And someone is sort of equal but like There's a a leader in the relationship Is is that something that you guys have Seen is important in relationships There are there are many different Arrangements in terms of decision making And Power in a relationship and the Important thing is it doesn't really Matter whether you know she's the Captain or he's the captain or nobody's The captain they decide by consensus as Long as it feels fair to both people as Long as it feels just and fair uh then Any Arrangement can work so there's no One better kind of arrangement in terms Of his his being the captain her being The captain nobody being the captain uh It has to feel fair and just that's That's the thing that matters the most

And have you got any tips for navigating Like for for example one thing I've Heard a lot of um friends who are in Long-term marriages say that it's really Useful to actually Sit down and actively divide up the Chores to be like I'm always taking the Trash out you're always done dealing With this I'm always doing dealing with That do you guys have any any tips on How to I guess navigate the logistics of A relationship in an effective way Wait a minute Let's let's divide it down a little bit The logistics of a relationship there's A whole lot of logistics right so Um It it really does help to sit down kind Of have a meeting right kind of a state Of the union meeting and uh to talk About how you're going to divvy up the Labor uh the labor of taking care of the House taking care of the kids taking Care of the yard taking care of the In-laws you know Um talking about entertaining and how Much you want to entertain versus just Have private time Um and part of that this is one of my Favorite things to do Ali is to create What we call rituals of connection and Rituals of connection are Um Activities that you do together with

Your partner that are pre-designed They're pre-planned and they're agreed Upon so you co-design a ritual of Connection uh and many of you are Probably already doing some of those So for example here are some rituals of Connection the way that you greet each Other first thing in the morning when You wake up The way that you greet each other if You're working you know apart and you Reunite at the end of the day Um do you have breakfast together every Morning do you have dinners together do You typically go out on a date one night A week or do you go out for brunch every Sunday do you uh during the ski season Of course you guys are in London it's a Little different but Um during an active season do you go Skiing every weekend for such and such a Number of months do you watch murder Mysteries at dinner and uh and they have To be British They're the best So John and I have this great ritual After dinner we have what we call a Cuddle couch whiz which is a a kind of a Case Lounge it's kind of a chaise you Know comfy Lounge that's about wide Enough for a person and a half and so Between the two of us we fill it up Really well and Um we'll watch British murder mysteries

In the evening when cuddle and cuddle And you know we're squished together our Dog often joins us so he's in there too And uh we'll watch you know rich people Getting murdered and it's very Satisfying so Um that's a ritual of connection yeah That's a ritual of connection Um yeah So you know any and rituals of Connection can be big too they can be How our birthday is celebrated in our Family How are the religious holidays Celebrated in our family right if you Have a Sabbath every weekend how is that Celebrated you know Etc Um how do you celebrate vacations what Kind of vacations do you go on Um we have an annual honeymoon that we Do right and we we've read this In the same bed and breakfast uh one so For 23 years we've been taking about 10 Days Bring our kayak and and we sit and talk To each other for those 10 days about What was the year like what did you hate About last year what did you love about Last year and what do you want next year To be like and we take a lot of time to Really do that while we're having fun Kayaking and hiking and eating out in Really good restaurants and going to the Farmers Market on Saturday and things

Like that so that's one of our rituals Of connection that we love yeah it's Really fun so when our daughter turned Eight years old she went away to camp For a couple of weeks and we decided we Should go to Camp too and that's when it Started right Yeah Excellent that sounds that sounds Amazing um one of the one of the things That my partner and I started doing Fairly early on in our relationship it's It's been about 18 months now Um we read a book called how to not die Alone by Logan Yuri who we had on the Podcast Logan is a good friend actual yeah yeah No she's great she's wonderful yeah we Adore her and and in the book she talked About doing uh relationship reviews and These included these questionnaires and So almost from kind of day one we've Been doing every few weeks the Relationship review And everyone I'm all my friends I Mentioned this to like half of them say Oh my gosh that I need that in my life And the other half say wait what that's That's a bit weird how can he possibly Do a relationship with you um but it's Been one of the most I think worthwhile Parts about kind of growing together Because we co-decided on what 10 Questions we were going to use we have a

Little notion template that we've been Filling in since for the last 18 months And it's super nice just to give that a I mean I've I've I've certainly found it Super helpful to make space in what's an Otherwise fairly busy life to be like Hey you know how are you feeling what's Something that I did that maybe made you Feel bad that I didn't realize would Make you feel bad and I've just it's Been such a great kind of learning curve From from my end but also those little Things that feel like they're not worth Bringing up in the moment we always know That okay at some point in the next Couple of weeks we're going to sit down And actively talk about stuff so You know if it doesn't need if it's not A major thing that needs to be discussed Right now it can always be pushed to to The review do you guys do anything like That is that something that you would Recommend people do Yeah we totally do we have Um and we often uh say that our clients Should do this but we tell everybody to Do this uh it's called a state of the Union meeting so you know we have a Different name for it and uh the way That that is typically conducted is each Person the the meeting begins with each Person giving three to five Appreciations Um for things the other person has done

Uh and saying thank you and these are Typically things that maybe haven't been Uh thanked for earlier So each person gives each other these Appreciations then the middle of the Meeting is bringing up anything that They need to solve any decisions that Need to be made any uh past regrettable Incidents that need to be processed the Way we talked about earlier today Um Uh so that you know that's kind of the Meaty part of The conversation needs can be brought up Then to you know what the person really Needs Um and so on and then the meeting ends With the question Um that each person poses to the other What is one way that I can help you feel More loved in the coming week And that is just you know that's really Keeps relationships on track I'm taking copious notes this is this is Incredibly useful Um do you guys have I guess do you guys Have a ritual around it do you like go Out for dinner and then do it or is it And is it like an ad hoc thing that Happens is it like a weekly monthly Thing like what what are the what's the Context around the state of the union Meeting You know um everybody can create their

Own context right I mean if you have six Kids running around the house you might Want to go out Um uh if you don't you can do it at home On a Sunday morning Um you can certainly go out to dinner You can do it while you're taking a walk I mean that's really a nice way to have That kind of joining together and Talking so you know whatever you're Comfortable with it's similar to uh what We did in our book eight dates where we Created conversations with a few Questions and preparation thinking you Know things to think about for each day And then people discussing these deeper Topics on each date uh and we give Suggestions for what that date could Look like given that particular topic For the week Um and of course people have the freedom To do whatever they want to do but it's It's really you know a lovely thing to Do to talk about these deeper topics and To have a way to do that changing gears A little bit Um what do you guys see as the function Of marriage in uh sort of modern secular Liberal kind of in my environment That's a great one yeah well Um well are you talking about marriage Versus a committed relationship where You're living together or just a Long-term yeah I guess yeah I guess kind

Of some some people would say that the Institution of marriage is outdated and We no longer need the government to step In and get involved etc etc what's wrong With just being in a committed long-term Relationship where we're not married Yeah I you know the uh the research on This and this is a new field that has Emerged in the past 50 years called Social epidemiology is really it's a Candy uh is really looking at uh what The benefits are of a good relationship It emerged out of asking questions you Know what what can you do to live longer And uh and this the the initial Questions thought well you probably just Need to have a diet that doesn't have as Much cholesterol and exercise but when They actually did the research It was started by uh Leonard Sim at Berkeley and his student uh Lisa Um what's her name it's okay yeah anyway Uh I I'm blocking on her last name and what They found was that relationships were What really predicted longevity and so Close relationships were the most Important thing very close friendships Your relationships with your children And your love relationships and if the Relationships were high in quality if People were really happy with the Relationship and uh and the marriage Really made them happy they would live

10 to 15 years longer and Not only would They live longer but they would recover From illness quicker and they'd have Fewer illnesses and their children would Do better in life so it turns out that If relationships have certain Ingredients they confer all of these Wonderful uh things you know they you Know people become wealthier they They're happier in life And it doesn't really matter if they're Married or not if there's Commitment if There's trust in the relationship and Usually that is part of the wedding vows So so you know the institution of Marriage is a way of kind of ensuring That these qualities are there in the Relationship that are life-giving Health-giving and really very healthy For our children and their development So it's not really the institution of Marriage it's the quality of the Relationship that makes the difference This episode is very kindly brought to You by trading212. now people ask me all The time for advice about investing Because I've made a bunch of videos About it on the YouTube channel and my Advice for most people is generally Invest in Broad stock market index funds Which is exactly what you can do Completely for free with trading 212. It's a great app that lets you trade Stocks and funds and ETFs and foreign

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Okay Uh John and I for example uh we were a Little older when we met uh but John Proposed in five months Which is you know relatively short I've Seen people who've proposed after a day Uh and but I had a database that's true I had dated 60 women In one summer just kind of making it my Purpose to find a partner and Julie was Number 61. and so she was such an Outlier for me that I knew very quickly That I wanted to spend my life with her You cutie he's so cute number six Everything felt right it was so easy to Talk yeah but you know is there Something so much special about number 61 is that my claim to fame number 61. You totally were an outlier compared to All the other women and you should have Heard about the other women I mean they Were like very interesting people and so Yeah one talked about murdering you know Having fantasies of murdering people It's just like oh my God so Um yeah So it there is no uh time frame I think The thing that's more important is Looking at the qualities of the person Uh and do they fit who you're looking For Um not that anybody is going to be a Perfect match I mean everybody has lots And lots and lots of different matches

That are possible out there in the world You know we're seven and a half billion People there's a lot of matches for you Uh but there's no one perfect person but Is this person kind are they respectful Not only to you but one of the things That I tell my single clients is look For how this person treats Uh servers at a restaurant for example Or the bus driver Uh of the bus you're getting on how do They treat people of all walks of life How do they even treat homeless people Um not just people at their status level But people below their status for their Cat so One of the things I loved about Julie Was she had this cat named sassy and When I when I took sassy off her Favorite chair and put her on the ground First time Julie cooked a meal for me in Her apartment we didn't know each other Very well the cat went right into the Kitchen and complained to Julie and I Could hear the cat saying who is this Jerk who just took me off my favorite Chair and put me on the ground I don't Like this guy and and Julie comforted The cat I could tell this cat was very Well treated she was very kind to this Cat Oh great I love that cat that was a Great cat Yep

Yeah so kind caring respectful uh also Reliable are they really reliable do They follow through with what they say They're going to do Um and one of the best questions if it's Somebody who's been in other Relationships uh in the past or even Other marriages is to ask them how come You broke up and if they blame the Breakup totally on the other person You're in trouble forget it They're not owning responsibility for Their part in whatever went wrong and That's a bad sign because they may do The same thing with you Nice On a some someone similar thing and the Answer to this might well be no but uh Is there any consensus on What sort of age Gap is like ideal if we Look at the stats is there an age Gap That's ideal Or is that just a yeah no you know the Only uh statistic that I know like that That actually is held up worldwide is That it's a mistake to marry a woman Before she's 20 years old So women once they once they're 20 years Old They're Marriage is a much more likely to be Stable Wow that's interesting that's a Worldwide phenomenon that's the only age

Thing I know of that uh has really held Up in the research yeah you know I've Seen clinically Um I've seen you know probably a Thousand couples or something over many Many years of treating people uh and I Think I've seen every age variation there is I've seen women who are 20 years older Than the partner the man if it's a Heterosexual relationship I've seen you Know gay and lesbian relationships with Big age gaps in every direction uh Sometimes men are much much older than Women as long as they can negotiate the Different Developmental needs they have in their Particular age you know for example Um if a 60 year old fellow marries a 25 Year old woman well that 25 year old Woman is probably very highly energetic Is wanting to go out do stuff you know If she's a little more extroverted uh You know go to bars maybe or go out and Dancing or go do you know bicycling on The weekend or whatever And You hope that there are some Intersections you know some overlap Between uh the Interests of the older person in the Interests of the younger person So Um that's you know it's more about that

It's also shared history Um people for example in the United States who are over let's say 35 40 Something like that all remember 9 11 When the Trade Towers in New York City Were bombed and we all had the Experience of that but a 20 year old is Not So does that make a difference in how Society is viewed or how dangerous the World feels so you know those are all Things that can be talked about and Understood you don't have to be Identical you shouldn't be in fact it's Not going to work it's too boring but to Be able to talk about those differences And there will be some in every Relationship is what's most important Okay nice Um so Julie you've got a Um a background as a relationship Therapist from my understanding um what Are the contexts in which you would Recommend a couple or an individual see A relationships therapist or a Relationships coach Uh well first of all Um let's see I would suggest first of all that people Uh who are having conflicts that never Get resolved and they end up trying to Sweep them under the rug or uh those Conflicts blow up into huge battles uh And there never is any progress

Um that is a couple that needs to see Somebody If there's been an affair that needs uh Help oftentimes sometimes if there's Been a terrible tragedy like a child has Been lost you know something like that Um people really need you know a lot of Support sometimes to navigate that and To uh have the relationship be Supportive of each person through that Process Sometimes people will feel very very Emotionally distant from each other They've grown apart you know not through Intention it's just happened you know Maybe through their Career Development Or something Um and they don't they don't really know Who their partner is anymore that's a Good time to go seek help Yeah in fact in the uh California Divorce mediation project with very Large project looking at Divorce by two Researchers XI Jin Kelly one of the two People who did that research Um they found that people drifting apart Was the major reason for divorce it Wasn't Affairs it wasn't you know the Kind of thing you think you know like Conflict about money would be the major Thing it said they drifted apart and so If you find yourself being lonely in the Relationship that's an excellent marker That you need a therapist to help you

Yeah perfect that's right Do you think there's any value in Preemptive relationship therapy almost Like getting a personal trainer even Before you're out of shape just to keep Things in shape is that something that You guys have seen and Yeah sure you know pre-marital Counseling that's what you're talking About or pre-commitment counseling sure I mean uh religious institutions have Been doing that you know for decades uh If not centuries so Um absolutely that's preemptive is a Great word Um yes uh people do come in uh to get Help and look for tools Um to have on board to have skills on Board because inevitably over time if They stay together there's going to be Difficult situations it's what life Throws us right so we want to be able to Navigate those carefully and gently and Compassionately right uh and not have Those turn into regrettable incidents Nice Um I'd love to talk a little bit about The new book uh the love prescription Seven days to more intimacy connection And joy I've started reading that on my Kindle and I've got the physical copy Arriving in the next in the next couple Of days Um but it's interesting because one of

The one of the claims in the book or at Least in the in the blurb is that there Is a formula for a good relationship and If you just I almost the vibe that I got Was that hey if you follow the formula And just do these seven things across These seven days or however however long It takes you will just almost magically Improve the quality of your relationship Uh so I wonder if you can just kind of Riff on that a little bit like what is This form formula for love Yeah Sure so one of the things is being nice To one another So you know all right giving apart a Compliments uh you know uh catching a Partner doing something right and and Communicating that communicating respect And affection and words letting your Partner know how attractive they are to You and how irresistible they seem at Times you know those that kind of Positivity is very very critical another One is Turning toward it turns out to be a very Powerful thing in a relationship so you Know in our apartment lab we saw 130 Newlywed couples and followed them for Six years We discovered that a lot of time when They're just kind of hanging out in this Apartment lab one person will try to get The other person's attention or share

Something humorous or you know some Interesting story that they've heard or Are reading about and then they try to Connect they make a bid for connection And then the cameras in the lab always Swung to the other person to see the Response and there were one of three Responses turning toward which was you Know really acknowledging the connection You know one person might say Oh What a Beautiful boat that is you know going by And if the other person said yeah huh uh That was turning toward if they didn't Respond at all that was turning away or If they responded irritably would you be Quiet I'm trying to read that was Turning against So when we followed couples the the 17 Couples who divorced one another after Uh six years after the wedding uh when We looked back six years earlier they Had turned toward these bids only 33 Percent of the time Whereas the couples who are still Together six years earlier had turned Toward the bids 86 percent of the time You know a huge difference And we also discovered that turning Toward is like an emotional bank account That you build when you really connect With your partner when your partner Wants to connect with you then During conflict You have more of a sense of humor about

Yourself and about one another you can Laugh together and you can be Affectionate even when you disagreeing And it reduces physiological arousal so Turning toward is another one that's Very very powerful and when people Become aware of that as a tool of Connecting then the relationship Improves quite dramatically right so in This book what we're doing is each day We're giving couples little thing to do Little 10 minute thing to do every Single day like one day we'll be giving Compliments you know really expressing Fondness and admiration a second day Will be look for what your partner is Doing right And not just wrong right and point it Out and say thank you to your partner You know third is listening you know Talking about your needs with one Another what do you need and we Emphasize you should bring up your needs As a positive need rather than a Negative need and what that means is That you ask for what you do want Not what you don't like or you resent Don't bring that up because that's going To sound like criticism instead flip it On its head and say I would love it if You clean the dishes three times a week That would be such a big help to me That's a positive me so uh people Present you know on I forget which day

They talk about one need they have with Their partner that can allow their Partner to shine for them It's not a criticism it's the opposite Right another one is honoring each Other's dreams so talk about what maybe Deeply held dream you have for something You want to do something you want to Experience something you want to feel Whatever it is Share that with your partner and really Listen to what your partner says about That question too So you know there what we hope to see if People practice this every day for seven Days is that from before they started it To the end of the week they'll see a Little bit of change maybe little Something feels different and they can Talk about which one of those little Prescriptions really made a difference For them Now it doesn't mean everything gets Fixed in seven days and then you can go Back to being whoever you were before no It's instead that you're learning how to Do something a little different that Deepens the Friendship deepens emotional Intimacy which of course opens up to you Know what you know more sexual intimacy And helps you when you have to talk About conflict continue those practices Especially the ones you found the best For you and your partner

And you'll see over time you know the Relationship is doing this over time big Change Fantastic and we'll put links down in The video description in the show notes Wherever people are listening or Watching to this to the to the new book Um I'd love to also I don't have kids Yet uh anything that couples and I guess I'm asking the question selfishly Anything that people should keep in mind Before having kids should is is there Stuff like ducks that you need to line Up before making that big plunge is There like a right time Any any tips on that front Well first of all there's never a right Time to have kids You know I mean in the sense that uh There's always something going on in Your life right uh you're doing work and You're doing a career or you know you Want to go do an adventure you want to Go travel you know whatever so you Decide to have kids when you really Really want kids and you prepare Yourself By talking a lot about Um really important questions for Example how should we discipline our kid Do we use corporal punishment or not That's a big one or should we raise our Kid within a particular religious Institution or not

Um If our kid wants to change genders or be Transsexual will we support that or not As our kid gets older Um how about who's going to take the Sleep shift Who's gonna do nights Um Which is really important how will we Handle nights how will we handle nights Right Um and uh lining up a support system is Really a good idea having friends Um who have already had kids You know maybe young kids uh and uh you Can go to them and say oh my God I Haven't slept in like 12 nights straight I'm going out of my mind how did you Survive and they can help support you You know through the process Let me provide a little different answer So the first book that Julie and I wrote Together was called and baby Makes Three And it was based on that newlywed study That we did as many of the couples Became pregnant and had their first Child together we followed them over Time we studied the babies and their Development and what we discovered was That at least in the United States there Seems to be true two-thirds of couples Have this big drop in relationship Happiness in the first three years of Their baby's life their first baby's

Life and one-third don't so Julie and I Studied the difference between the One-third and the two-thirds group and We designed a workshop called bringing Baby home Uh which was one that we wished we had When we had our baby because we we Brought the baby home and Julie said What do we do now and I said well Against the videotape at the hospital so We put it in and it had nothing about Babies it was all about all the services The hospital offered so we actually Developed that you know videotape and Manual that we wished we had when we First brought our baby home and in that Workshop that bringing baby home Workshop in just 10 hours 80 percent of Couples avoid that drop in relationship Happiness just by looking at things like How do we play with babies how important Are fathers in the development of kids And how should they be involved and how Do we maintain intimacy sexual intimacy Emotional intimacy how do we make Decisions better as we deal with Conflict better in just 10 hours Everything changed for these couples It's our biggest effect that we've ever Had in in programmatic research so you Really want to do this Workshop before You have a baby And it's online actually it can be Streamed online uh at The gottman

Institute Right I'll put a link to that down below As well and I'll definitely be checking That out when when the time is right Um guys I just I just wanted to end by a Bit of a random question you guys have Written a bunch of books um what does Your writing and I I guess what is your Kind of writing process look like and I Ask because I'm kind of in the midst of Editing for my first book and I ca I Want to do this writing thing as like a Long-term gig and you guys have Absolutely done the writing thing as a Long as a long-term gig so what does the Process look like and do you have any Tips for new uh and aspiring writers Uh well uh typically uh John will write A rough draft Um chapter by chapter and then I will Then he'll give it to me I'll probably Reorganize it rewrite sections of it Edit it Um into a second draft give it back to Him Uh he usually rubber stamps it or he may Fill in a little bit uh of things that I've missed uh and that's it We're off and running except that we Have to do the research first yeah sure So uh you know it's important to go to The library And read you know what the research is If you haven't done the research

Yourself uh So for example one of my favorite books Is come as you are Emily nagoski wrote That book about how to maintain a great Sexual relationship and she went to the Library she actually did her research on What makes relationships work sexually And so that's a very very important part Of it quite often people write books Just on the basis of their own intuition And their own experience and quite often They come up with bad advice I myself As a source of hypotheses or is I'm Completely unreliable I've kept track of My ideas and my hypotheses are wrong Sixty percent of the time So if I didn't do the research I think I Was right 100 of the time but most of Mostly I'm wrong But what I think how the reality should Be So do the research that's the important Thing I think And then right right so people really Enjoy reading it Nice guys thank you so much this has Been absolutely wonderful uh where can People go to learn more about the work That you do and um yeah your your Workshops and things Uh they can go to Www.gotman g-o-t-t-m-a-n.com And everything is right there

Amazing and we'll put links to all of That stuff as well about the Goldman Institute everything will be linked down Below Probably they can also go to the App Store and type in gottman card decks and Download a free That they can have on their phones with All kinds of card decks for improving Sexual relationship for helping them Talk about what they need and how they Feel and and all of that is downloadable For free Fantastic I have I didn't know that Those existed but I will I'm just Checking it on the other store now I've Got my card decks for the iPad oh so Good We'll be installing that right now so Yeah guys thank you so much this has Been wonderful um thanks for um giving Us your time and your expertise and Thanks again for the amazing work you've Done over the the several several Decades I know I benefited from your Work and there are so many of my friends Who have read your stuff and just Have cited it to death in in Conversation so thank you so much for That Um and uh have a great day Thank you so much Ellie and also uh we Want to wish you well in your Relationship right

Thank you we're on a good road here yeah We're checking out all of the various Books that you've got as the time as the Time comes Sounds good okay thank you so much All right so that's it for this week's Episode of Deep dive thank you so much For watching or listening all the links And resources that we mentioned in the Podcast are going to be linked down in The video description or in the show Notes depending on where you're watching Or listening to this if you're listening To this on a podcast platform then do Please leave us a review on the iTunes Store it really helps other people Discover the podcast or if you're Watching this in full HD or 4k on YouTube then you can leave a comment Down below and ask any questions or any Insights or any thoughts about the Episode that would be awesome and if you Enjoyed this episode you might like to Check out this episode here as well Which links in with some of the stuff That we talked about in the episode so Thanks for watching uh do hit the Subscribe button if you aren't already And I'll see you next time bye

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