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Season 4 Episode 11
Matteo Franceschetti and Alexandra Zatarain are the co-founded Eight Sleep, the world’s first ever sleep fitness company. They’re on a mission to fuel human potential through optimal sleep with their product the Pod – a sensor layer that tracks and improves your sleep by dynamically heating or cooling the temperature of your bed based on your sleep stages. Through backing and funding Eight Sleep is now worth $500 million and is currently used by pro athletes and top performers across multiple industries and was recognized as one of TIME’s Best Inventions. In the conversation we talk about how to take care of your sleep through exercise, nutrition and thermoregulation, their experiences building the first ever sleep fitness company and advice for entrepreneurs. Enjoy!
00:00 Disclaimer
00:22 Intro
02:07 Your background and 8Sleep origin story
18:20 The 80/20 of sleep
31:39 What is thermoregulation?
34:34 The 80/20 of exercise
37:40 The 80/20 of nutrition
40:48 What is sleep fitness?
44:37 How do your devices detect illness?
52:01 There’s a billion people in the world with sleep apnea
58:39 The stages of sleep and why they matter
01:07:00 The 8sleep pod 3 cover
01:08:48 How is HRV reflective of stress?
01:17:56 Tips for aspiring entrepreneurs
01:29:05 What makes an A-player?
01:35:05 Leadership advice
01:37:55 Going into business with your spouse
01:41:33 Book recommendations
🔗 CONNECT WITH MATTEO & ALEX
🎁 Matteo and Alex have generously offered $250 off the Pod 3 Cover with the code DEEPDIVE250, offer ends 31/12/23 –
🎥 YouTube Channel – @eight_sleep
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🔗 CONNECT WITH ALI
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📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED
Shoe Dog by Phil Knight –
The Score Takes Care Of Itself by Bill Walsh –
The Almanack of Naval Ravikant: A Guide to Wealth and Happiness –
High Output Management by Andrew S Grove –
Meditations: The Philosophy Classic (Capstone Classics) by Marcus Aurelius –
📄SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT
Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation –
🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST
Deep Dive is the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators and other inspiring people to uncover the philosophies, strategies and tools that help us live happier, healthier and more productive lives.
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By the way just a quick flag um we did Have a hardware failure of one of our SD Cards on the audio recording for this Episode unfortunately so the audio for This episode is A little bit worse than the kind of high Quality that we normally go for I still Think the episode is enormously valuable And I learned so much from the Conversation so I do hope you'll forgive The slightly choppy audio anyway I hope You enjoyed the episode when we started Working on eight slave now you know Seven eight years ago we found that the Way that people were talking about sleep Was mostly in the context of illness but There was no way to describe what it Meant to be healthy in your sleep we Believe that sleep is just like Fitness It is not just an end you're constantly Working on it it's okay you don't sleep Well tonight what you're about to hear Is an interview between me and this is The first three-way interview we've done On the podcast me and Mateo and Alex who Are the husband and wife co-founders of Eight sleep which is the world's first Sleep Fitness company so this Conversation focuses on sort of two main Areas firstly we talk a lot about sleep Fitness how do we optimize our sleep how Do we make sure we're getting the right Amount of sleep what is the 80 20 of What we need to know to really maximize
The performance in the realm of sleep But we also talk about how we maximize Our performance in the realm of diet Like nutrition and exercise as well if You knew there is one thing that you can Do every single day and will enhance Your body performance is natural and it Will help you live longer than a Healthier life what is that that is late And so if you want to raise your own Performance bar the number one thing on Earth you can do sleep and the other Half of the conversation is around Entrepreneurship how he and Alex and Their co-founders built this company to This valuation of over 500 million Dollars what it's like building a Physical product that's essentially a Mattress that has sensors in it and Circulates water around over 90 of Startups and businesses fail so the Realities there are safer routes to make Money if you want to make money being an Entrepreneur is probably not the easiest Way either you know the number one thing Driving Founders is they don't want to Fail Just a very quick thing before we get Started if you have not yet subscribed To the podcast either on YouTube or in Your favorite podcast app of choice then Please do it really helps us out a lot Alright so Alex and Mateo thank you so Much for for coming on this is this is
Very exciting because I've been if you Guys are the founders of eight sleep Which is now this 500 million dollar Company I've been hearing about you Basically every week on the Tim Ferriss Show and I bought one of the one of the Products a couple weeks ago and it Arrived I think like last week and my my Sister-in-law has been using it for the Last several months and says it's Completely changed their life so really Excited to be talking to you guys and You're in the UK because you're you're Doing you're sponsoring mercedes's team For formula one which is just absolutely Insane Um I'd love to get started with like so Eight sleep is apparently the world's First ever sleep Fitness company so I'd Love to dig into what is sleep Fitness And kind of the deal with that but Before we do that you guys are Co-founded the company you guys are Married how did you guys meet what was That all the origin story We met in Miami actually at the time I Was still living in Italy but I was Starting a business in the US in New York uh so I was in New York I flew to Miami for a couple of days of vacation It was uh Halloween night and we met Actually in a club which is uh not Really as I'm not a big clubbing guy and She's not a clubbing person but at night
Because it was Halloween we both went to This club our friends they met and then We were like one next to each other and We started 32. It was almost 12 years ago so yeah oh 12 Years ago okay that was a while ago yeah And then there was the following night I Invited her out for dinner because then I was flying back to Italy so it was bad For nothing and she agreed to to have Dinner together and then we stayed in Touch or came back to the US and then It's when we started dating oh wow okay So you're originally from Italy what About you what about Europe I'm from Mexico actually because I was in Miami Just for school oh so you guys were both Kind of in America of just visiting Correct probably yeah so then were you Like long distancing like we did yeah so I'm from Tijuana at the border Um I was born in California so I did a Year of school in Miami and so we sort Of have this like weird you know Background mix and Um we were in Miami then eventually I Went back to Mexico to finish school he Went back to Italy then we moved to the US and I graduated so yes I could just Spend like moving all around the world But the bottom line is was one uh one Year apart and then I moved to New York To start my previous business Alex grab Calculated and she came to New York with
Me okay and that is how everything Started oh excellent so I I understand That you've got a background as like a Pro pro athlete or something like what's What that what was happening there was That in Italy was that in the US uh There was a in uh in Italy mainly in Italy and uh yeah I was a tennis player When I was a teenager I did a bunch of Sports but tennis was the the number one Then I also raced with cars I did some Uh ski races but yeah 90 of my thought Was when I was a teenager was uh being a Tennis player and that is how I got into Recovery performance all that kind of Thing then I studied low so I became a Boring business lawyer I worked for two Archaeologists law firms actually British law firms aluminum freshers And then I accepted my first company in Italy then I sold that so I started Another one in the US and then I started It what was the first company uh they Were both in solar energy so clean tech Can renewable energy there was a big Booming of clean tech energy Particularly solar in Italy probably the The only big moment to in in the past 50 Years to start a company from scratch in Italy right and that is how I was able To shift and switch from being a lawyer To become an entrepreneur the one Allowed funding okay so pro athlete when You were young then boring lawyer and
Then the entrepreneur in Italy and then You moved to New York yeah so I sold the Italian company I moved to the US I Replicated the same business model in The US we raised some money and then our Pipeline of products got acquired by a a Company owned by Panasonic and then I Started it oh wow okay so by the time You would exit the second company Presumably you're super rich and don't Need to worry about money at this point I'm just kind of guessing yeah I I think we're we're good so then you Never know but yeah yeah what we are Doing now is it's I think outside I think to help people live a healthier And longer life if if I look back at the Career one thing I'm really proud of is The first two companies wearing Cleantech rights and you have the world To be a better place yeah and now Something in health and so we're helping Human beings to live along of their life No I love it like well one of the things I really like about speaking to Founders Is that And I was reading this in one of these Like CDO coaching books where it's like Usually the first company people start Is because they want to get rich and Then once once they've gotten Rich then They're like cool I want to get rich and I have fun and then once they've gotten Rich and had their fun at that point
That the rest of their life is about Actually being service driven and impact Driven yeah and I feel like that was Very much the case for me where I Started off doing like the first Business at University helping people Get into med school Because I enjoy teaching but really I Want to make money because it's like you Know I've got student loans I don't Wanna I don't want to be broke let's try And make some money and now sort of Seven years down that this YouTube Channel is doing well I feel like my own Internal focus is shifting from how do I Actually try and help people and that Seems to be the arc that a lot of people Go down like genuinely being impact Driven yeah I think probably most of That comes to like depending on on your Background and I think most in both of Our cases come from families that the Pre-normal and sort of you know the Middle class and they have jobs but like You don't live in wealth and so a lot of Your first jobs are like yeah you need To pay back your student loans you have To make money you need an income maybe You want to buy a house and so like it's It's sort of that path and then Eventually you realize maybe you have More stability than your parents ever Had and you're like okay now I can you Know the Pyramid of Macedonia okay now
The self-actualization actually kicks in Um and I think it's pretty common for Entrepreneurs that are sort of coming From those those types of backgrounds to Just eventually get rid of that guilt And be like okay now I can focus on Something else yeah so this is something I wanted to ask you guys about so you Know Simon sending talks about you start With Y and all that stuff and I I've Spoken to a lot of young people who want To start businesses but they all want to Like you know go and go into a Particular career but they're often they Often feel like I don't really know why I'm doing this I don't know what the Core purpose is behind this other than To make money and I've always thought That hey you know to make money is a Reasonable first first goal and then Once you get past that point then you Can worry about the self-actualization Is that is that how you guys think about It as well or do you think it is Important to have that kind of impact Driven Focus from from day one when You're starting businesses I think it Can come over time and I think it's Really nice we're actually talking about That last night for having dinner about This concept of Legacy right so if you Can reach a point where you really want To build the brand that is here to stay And is a global brand and you have this
Legacy where you're helping millions of People to live a better life right that Is really fulfilling because I think you Will never go through the pain of Entrepreneurship just because of money I Think money is just a probably an Evidence of you know this the size of The results that you deliver but After a couple of months it's not about That actually there is Paul Graham who Talks about that and says that the Number one thing driving Founders is uh They don't want to fail because of now How would you explain to your mom to Your friends and everyone else and so Avoiding failure is the number one Driver of most Founders yeah yeah Actually and why come here we went Through our community program which is Pretty well known around the world Um now a few years ago and they talked About the fact that there's easier and Better ways to make money more money Than being an entrepreneur it's true Because probably over 90 of startups and Businesses fail so the realities there Are safer routes to make money Um and if you want to make money being An entrepreneur is probably not the Easiest way either you know it's very Time consuming so it definitely starts For some other reason even though there Is that big lofty dream of like you Could become lucky if you actually
Strike gold yeah okay so at this point You've moved to New York to start Company number two in in solar energy What were you doing at the time yeah so When I'm engineer I just graduated so I Actually started Communications in School which is why now I focus on Marketing and the brand for eight sleep Um and then I was just having normal Jobs I graduated from school I'm like Who's going to give me a job in New York Move me there get me started Um so at the time before starting each Sleep I was working at a financial Technology company Um in New York And so you guys at this point it will What year are we in when you both moved To New York that was 2011 yeah 2011 and Then he started eight sleep in 2014. So for those three years you're working On solar energy and you've got normal Jobs and then so where did the idea for Eight sleep come from yeah well I would Say in those three years there were also Always like hacking things that's Actually like working together we don't Have like ideas we would like do things Over the weekend so during the yeah During the weekend we were doing our own Hackathons between the two of us so we Were building staff together what kind Of stuff Websites and we were trying different
Kind of business models but it was just For fun then we started involving Max With our third co-founder Um and our CTO and he was not the one Who was the the strongest technical Skills and we started now playing on a Couple of different projects with theme And then a certain part until we came up With the idea for eight sleep I featured The max max built the Prototype and then We organized a pajama party where we Invited friends and Alexandra she Designed the whole presentation and we Put together a quick logo and that is How everything started because I took The pajama party one of our friends came To me and he gave me a 25k check and so There was no company there was no names There was nothing and so at that point We say okay so maybe now we're sitting Corporate yeah and cash the check Um and from there we decided to start The crowdfunding campaign what were the Dots that connected to lead you to the Idea of I guess cooling mattress a couple of Different things the the most obvious One is uh I started wandering a couple Of years before I sleep while on mask is Taking me to Mars but I still spend a Third of my life on a piece of done four Right this technology and everything we Do and then for eight hours a day you go On this piece of done for me you pretend
To wake up fully refreshed and that was Making no sense to me as an athlete as An entrepreneur working really long Hours and so I pitched this idea to Max And we started brainstorming about all The different types of technologies that We could bring to your path and then Max Build the Prototype What was what what else was around at The time like was was there any other I Guess smart bed stuff there were not Smart beds but I think one of the Interesting things you know when I when I remember Mateo kind of having this Insight and starting to go through a Process of understanding sleep in the Landscape there were you know Jawbone Was a company that was around doing Wearables there was Fitbit and both of Those companies were starting to track Sleep through werewolves you know at the Beginning they were just on Fitness and Steps and they were going into sleep and You were using both ran you were sort of Trying to figure out well what what can I discover about my own sleep and this In this with this technology there were Apps you could put your phone on the bed And it would like track through movement It was like very early on back in yeah 2014 and you started meeting with some Of your friends Um who were like you would have calls With friends who were athletes back in
Italy there's that friend who like Sailed around the world alone and I Remember that friend connected you with A doctor who would help these Sailors Train for sleeping in intervals of like 15 minutes because they're alone in the Boat and so you started discovering like The science of it you're like oh wait Like sleep is actually like it's pretty Complex and like there's all these Things that have been learned around Sleep and so like that is how the rabbit Hole really started to understand that Technology could influence some Important factors of sleep and the the Foundation of it and it's really is Still what we did today is saying well The first thing is we believe it ain't Sleep and now as we did back then that Data is very important you can't improve What you don't measure so what is the Most seamless way in which we can Measure and that was sort of seeing well Wearables were not really cutting it for Us and like the phones were not really Accurate and that's where Max our Co-founder and TP also what we can put Sensors in the bed but then from there All of those conversations with the Scientists that knew more than us uh Guided us to say well with that data There's a lot of personalization you can Do the environment and that's how you Unlock the optimization of sleep nice
Okay so a couple of questions before we Dive into like the the technology Firstly it's a high performers athletes And stuff like how obsessed are they With tracking things and like what what Is that world like you know recovery and Performance and stuff yeah so this is Almost a gap because they are obsessed With sleep and performance but at the End of the day they don't track much and They don't even know much about what you Can to actually improve your sleep like Camera regulation so one of the most Surprising things for me now that we Work with some of the best athletes in The world is really this Gap where the Camera regulation is the big elephant in The room if you want to improve your Sleep maybe what they know is just oh I Should sleep at 78 degrees my room my Bedroom should be at 78 degree which is Not even right because if the Temperature should change during the Night right so 178 degree could be right For one hour two hours of the whole Night but the rest of the time you need A different temperature Um and sometimes they don't track Themselves right even on a daily basis With an Apple Watch or maybe they just Track themselves while they are Exercising rather than that they don't Track themselves too much actually a big Surprise I would say when we go to
Dinner with athletes is food yeah Because I'm a kind of bio-acourage Meaning I like to play with all that Stuff usually I have a CGM like Everything right and so I'm on a keto Diet I fast I I do all these kind of Things to optimize my performance and Most of these times I remember we went With a really famous swimmer and we were Asking him okay what do you eat now the Night before you lean bake things like That and we were surprised about the Fact that he was joking about eating a Pizza the night before just because That's what he liked and he was going For that and this is You know you're like okay all right You're really talented because if you Could win without paying attention to Nutrition Um at least that yeah just a quick Message from one of our sponsors and We'll get right back to the episode and This episode is very kindly brought to You by Heights Heights is a brain care Smart supplement it is two capsules that You take every day I've been taking it For the last 12 months and it contains Over 20 evidence-based micronutrients That you need to keep your brain and Body healthy like I said I've been Taking Heights every day for the last 12 Months and through that I've actually Become friends with the founder Dan who
We actually had on season one of this Podcast and this season we also have an Interview with neuroscientist and Psychiatrist Tara swart who is the chief Science officer at Heights as well and One of the things I love about Heights Is the fact that every single thing they Do is very evidence-based over on their Blog on their website they've got tons Of Articles along with links to all of The different papers that they've cited That show all the benefits of the Various micronutrients that they've got In these two little capsules and the Best thing about taking these is that It's just two little capsules every Morning so you don't have to deal with Green sludge or any other kind of Faffrey it's just literally taking two Pills it's super easy to sign up you Just go on the website but you put in Your address and they send you either a Monthly or a quarterly subscription I Sign up to the quarterly one myself Because a it's cheaper and B I'd have to Take fewer deliveries and if you use the Coupon code Ali 15 at checkout that will Give you 15 off the already discounted Price of the quarterly subscription so You can try out Heights to your heart's Content so thank you so much Heights for Sponsoring this episode and for helping Improve my own brain care for normal People like what sort of
Gains do you get in terms of I I guess a Lot of people listening to this might be Thinking uh you know I sleep well enough I eat well enough I'm not overweight Like Be beyond the basics how needle moving Is it to start optimizing things and Like you know doing the continuous Glucose monitoring and the ice paths and Like all the states like are we are we Talking kind of final percentage point Optimizations or is it actually Surprisingly like bigger than that no it Could be pretty big maybe I'll just give Like a bit in the background where like People say we hear very often it's like Oh I sleep well right and what you Realize and like the stats show you is Like really at least a third of the World totally sleep deprived and you Often hear people say like well I sleep Six hours or something because I think Four hours but it becomes a normal People think that the way they feel is Normal because you're sort of like used To it my body is amazing has this Capacity to adapt but Mattel always Talks about the fact that like if you Just try for a week sleeping one hour Longer Um especially if you are sleep deprived You'll see how much better you can feel And all your potential that would be Unlocked that's my test right to people
And sometimes even when people say I Need a vacation I just say no you just Need to sleep one hour longer every Single day because if you think over a Week seven hours of sleep you're getting One night of sleep right yeah and so Just try that because if you want need a Vacation but you cannot go on vacation Sleep one hour long every day for seven Days then come back to me and I'll give You 100 bucks if you don't feel better All right okay that's a good test but Going back to your question I think it Depends meaning sleep sleeping the right Amount of hours and in the proper way It's gonna be Disruptive in a positive sense for how You feel then the second biggest one is Definitely Fitness right working out is Going to make a massive uh difference in How you feel and also in how you eat Right because if you train in the Morning it's uh unlikely that you will Create junk food you know it's it's Almost like a sequence and you will Start taking care of yourself more and More and then I would say in terms of Nutrition there are a couple of things That are the 80 20 right okay avoid this Or just I don't know try to skip one of The meals and just eat within an eight Hours window and then you can take it to The next level where you are on a keto You just eat once per day but that I
Think is the last one two percent okay Great so when it comes to sleep let's Say for normal people what is the 80 20 Of what we can do to have to improve it Consistency forgot to bad at the same Time wake up at the same time sleep Seven to nine hours take care of your Temperature so 10 more regulation Because these three things Yeah eighty percent probably 90 percent There is that so what I've I've read why We sleep and I've read like some Rebuttal online about like oh why we Take this because of all these Things and there seems to be a lot of Like Um um controversy in the literature Around like seven hours eight hours nine Hours six hours like what's the kind of Normal person take away from from this So the interesting thing and that is Also part of the reason why we are Called a sleep because I don't believe You need eight hours of sleep and this Is how everything started so before I Eat sleep I started looking into okay Can I sleep last so how many people work Hard sometimes that's why I wanted to Work more and work out more and I Discovered that the original reason why We say that there should be eight hours It is just an average and so everyone is Different the bottom line is you need a Certain amount of deep sleep and a
Certain amount of RAM and a paid sleep We believe we will compress your sleep So in the future you will be able to Sleep only six hours and get more rest Then when you were sleeping eight hours Then going back to your question is in General an approximation is that you Need between seven and nine hours to get That amount of the background everyone Is different in our case we tend to see But at least eight hours and a half Every single night at the end of the day You need to do what it you know makes You feel good but the important thing is That you don't oversleep for example During the weekends a lot of people say Okay you know during the week I go to Sleep at 10 I wake up at six but then During the weekend I try to recover and I sleep until 10 a.m that's wrong Because substantially you're jet lagging Yourself because it's not that your body Knows that it's the weekend it says why Now you're waking up three hours later Maybe you are on a different in a Different time yeah and it's like that Consistency will train your body to wake Up naturally at that time and you will Feel more refreshed when you wake up so What why is that I you have a biological clock and you Have your own circadian cycle and that Is how your body operates right so this Internal uh clock is setting all your
New physiological needs including sleep And so you just want to be as consistent As possible so your body goes into a Sort of autopilot and knows that I need To feel asleep at this time and I need To wake up naturally at this time so What time do you guys sleep and wake up What's that yeah we got to bed around 10 10 30 and we wake up anywhere between Six six thirty seven at least okay so One of the one of the issues that I have And I'm sure a lot of our listeners will Be feeling the same as that You know I have I would have an Intention but oh I'd love to go to bed By 10 30. but you know I might be watching something or I might Be on my phone or I might have some Friends over or dinner might be going on Late and I'm always thinking huh how Important is it really that I sleep at 10 30 today uh like how how do you guys Do that consistently with a busy and Social lifestyle and how much leeway do You give yourselves to not do that yeah So we are pretty regimented on that I Would say uh so first of all I think we Are like in the US you can have dinner Social dinners quite early so you can't Have the United States very in Italy Would never have it I think I end up Going nine yeah in Pakistan it's like 11 P.m yeah So we go for if we have a social dinner
We try to set it early let's say six six Thirty and then we can be home by 8 30 And start decompressing uh but it's Really important because if you care About your performance the following day It's really important that we wake up at 6 30 7 6 whatever that we feel energized So then we can work out and then kick Off to be in the proper way so almost You should think of sleep like the the Most Enhancement the strongest enhancement Drug on Earth if you if you will right And I think there is much worker in the Book that you were mentioning that talks About that right if you knew there is One thing that you can do every single Day and will enhance your body Performance is natural and it will help You live longer than a healthier life What is that that is late and so if you Want to raise your own performance power The number one thing on Earth you can do Sleep Sick and it's free yeah yeah that's so Good like everything is consequential Meaning if you want to work out Right so first of all I don't know if You know it but you will you will die Sooner from sleep deprivation than from Uh from food right okay hopefully none Of them is going to happen but the other Important thing is there are three Pillars in half right one is lead one is
A fitness and the other is nutrition but The foundational piece is lip if you Don't sleep you're not gonna work out Today you feel too tired you're unable To perform you will start craving junk Food and probably you will start eating Carbs and everything else right so the Foundational part is sleep sleep well Seven to nine hours you wake up feeling Great and fresh that will drive you to Work out and eat properly I'm Um should you uh so if you know you've Got your sleep well okay now I'll Rephrase that Some days I wake up feeling refreshing I'm like yeah and a lot of other days I'm like If you have the sleep thing dialed in do You always wake up feeling like yeah is That is that like the aim or is it is it Normal to feel tired when you when you Wake up I don't think it's always the Same but the part of the Mattel was Mentioning before it really is true when You become very consistent that's why Consistency is is such an important Factor like that's where you can start With improving your sleep you will wake Up more naturally and just the fact that Your body wakes up on its own and that's Because of that circading clock you will Feel better the probabilities that you Will feel maybe not Ultra energize every Morning but just wake up on your own or
Much higher when you stay consistent and That already makes a difference in the Perception you have of how you feel when You wake up yeah yeah I've I've Definitely found like any time I read a Sleep Book or have a conversation with Someone who's into sleep then I'm like Super consistent for the next five days Or whatever and I'm currently on a Consistent thing where every morning I Wake up at half seven the last night I Had a slightly later night and I set the Alarm for half past day I'll just look At the half of seven anyway I actually Feel awake cool let's just get out of Bed and it was and it's it's almost been Nice these last several days like Turning off my alarm when it's like IPhone's like oh it looks like you're Awake do you want to yeah And then there is another three oh yeah I was recently interviewed by fortune And I spoke about that that is the Nahuchino do you know the nappuccino no It wasn't actually so an apple chain is These let's say you were happy you don't Feel great you can try to take a nap During the day but the best thing you Should do is you should drink a coffee Before the nap the reason is the coffee Will kick in 30 minutes later the nap Should be no longer than 30 minutes Usually they're recommended amount of Time is 20. and so you have an espresso
You try to take the nap by the time you Wake up from the nap the coffee will Kick in and you will feel like a super Superman and you guys take naps yes when We can yes I mean I think it's what you Were mentioning was like you know your Social life and work it happens so like You can't maybe be taking notes every Day especially if you're going into an Office physically Um but samples were like we're in London We don't live here when you're Deadlocked right like what is the right Way to do it well you want to stay Consistent when you wake up wake up Early in the morning don't try to Oversleep but then maybe you'll need a Nap later in the day we take the nap and Then do the nappacino thing you wake up And then you keep going and a lot of Athletes MBA actually it's like a lot of Athletes that play at the night they try To take a nap in the afternoon to Undercover because it's a matter of Adenosine right so the the map will help You to reduce the amount of adenosine in Your brain and you will feel more Energized and refreshed And like this okay so this is a very Specific question of this but anytime I've tried to take a nap I'm always like All right cool 20 minutes 30 minutes And then it takes me like 15 minutes to Even fall asleep and then I'm like it
Was not even worth it like do you guys Fall asleep immediately when you no I Mean your mind is probably erasing like Nine so I struggled with that so first You start learning yeah probably it's Gonna take me 15 minutes I have to fall Asleep but the key thing is usually you Don't need to and actually you don't Want to fall into deep sleep or rent so You want the very light sleep that is Just gonna relax your brain and reduce The amount of adenosine and so sometimes Yeah you feel bad like oh I didn't Really fall asleep but that is already Helpful for your brain yeah there's a Type of sort of like the Sleep Dr Andrew Talks a lot about like the non-sleep Deep rest and so you can enter that sort Of like this like kind of meditative State and where like your brain is Stressing and maybe you didn't fall Fully asleep like it's still valuable For your brain to just really try to try To fall asleep and give it that moment Of rest yeah if anything is just a Relaxation thing even if you don't fall Asleep just a quick little break before We get right back to the episode and That's to let you know that this episode Is very kindly brought to you by short Form short form is the world's best Service for summaries of books but it's More than just book summaries what short Form does is it basically creates a sort
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The ideas in the book and this kind of Tends to be how I use short form either I use it as a way of deciding whether I Want to read a book if it's new to me or I use it as a way of revisiting ideas From books I've already read so if any Of that stands up your street and you Too would like to try out the world's Best service for summarizing books then Head over to shortform.com forward slash Deep dive and firstly that will give you A completely free five-day trial where You can try it out and see if you like It and it will also give you 20 off the Annual premium subscription which is the Thing that I personally subscribe to so Thank you so much short form for Sponsoring this episode Okay so we've Talked about seven to nine hours we've Talked about consistency can you talk me More about thermoregulation what do we Mean by that yeah so the other big Elephant in the room to really improve Your sleep how much you have to Disorders is temperature and so your Body temperature changes during the Night and as soon as you fall asleep Your body temperature drops and then a Couple of hours before the time you want To wake up your body temperature will Rise which if you think it does the same Thing of the sun right so 90 gets colder And colder and then a couple of hours Before the sunrise it starts warming up
And the Sun comes out and it's warmer Right so your body does the same exact Thing so what we do at day sleep is we Didn't reinvent the wheel we just help Your body to actually do in the proper Way what it's supposed to do and so your Med will have a certain temperature by The time you go to bed it could be hot Or cold and we're between 55 and 110 Degrees each side of the bed can have a Different temperature so I've got it in Celsius Ranges between 10 and 35 ish something Like that so really cold to really warm It's unlikely you go to this next text Yeah Um but the bottom line is you you're Getting bad is a certain temperature That you like as soon as you fall asleep The temperature will drop Um because what you want in the first Part of the night is a colder Temperature because in the first part of The 90 you tend to get more deep sleep In the second part of the night when you Said you tend to get more RAM you want The warmer temperatures called Almost Terminal neutrality and the reason is When you are in Ram your brain Deactivates a lot of controls in Grammys When you're dreaming right and so you Run you're not moving at all yeah Because the body wants to protect itself Because you're dreaming yeah right and
One of the things that deactivates is Temperature control and so you want to Be in this neutral thermal neutral Environment so your body doesn't think That you could die during okay What's going on but the bottom line is Based on the defensive stages you need Different temperatures and that is what We provide the results are that you get Up to 34 more deep sleep you get up to 32 percent more sleep quality and you Get up to 19 percent better recovery so Pretty meaningful numbers that's pretty Sick um okay so the is is there like an Optimum temperature for people that Don't have a night's sleep like the Reality is no there is an approximation Which is what usually you know you hear Saying oh you should sleep at 68 70 Degrees which is what 18 19 yeah but the Reality is that's wrong because again Your body temperature changes your sleep Cycle is changing yeah and so Temperatures should adjust accordingly Okay Um okay so we talked about sleep Um what is it what's the 80 20 of Um exercise and nutrition as well yeah For example 5 is heat uh so high Intensity intervals training and Strength training so with heat what you Want to do is you want to spike your Heart rate and you want to let it drop You want to do this three to five times
A week at least 20 minutes each time is What it will be up to the other big Thing is dry straining all right Um and so you should do that a couple of Times a week as well for from Dead Leaves to chest training that will help Hormones like testosterone and other Things and both of them they will help You the responsive medical studies that They will help you live a longer and Healthier life because you are taking Care of your cardiovascular system and You're also making sure that all your Muscles are strong okay working out in The morning versus the evening versus The afternoon any consensus on that So on that you can be flexible whatever Works best for you my recommendation is Don't work out three hours before going To bed otherwise you will accelerate Your heart rate and it will be harder to Cause it so do you have to work out in The morning or what's your yeah it's the Best yeah but I think one of the Interesting things that I talk a lot About because he experienced a lot with All these things and then he ends up Driving me into it is that the Difference is just biologically amongst You know like even male female bodies And like our hormones and so even the Example of working out a lot of the Things now that people talk about in in The in the health space is that
Personalization for women throughout the Month because as we go through different Hormone levels throughout our monthly Cycles there is uh different recommended Ways to work out for your body because Your body may need to utilize the energy For different things throughout the Month especially while you have your Actual like menstruation during the Month right so it gets really Fascinating that it's becoming more and More towards personalization which is The same thing we folks who need sleep With with sleep the personal stations Are leaking everyone needs a different Temperature everyone has different needs Throughout every day and every day of Their life that's the same for working Out and nutrition is another big big one Um when we've used Um use complex monitors and we've tested It it's just so incredible that we have Such different response to foods but at The end of the day when you're cooking In a household you're cooking the same Meal for both people right and so how do You start understanding that actually Diets are not like a blanket that's all But people will actually have very Different needs and hormones play a big Role into that and in the case of women Hormones actually change on a daily Basis yeah so it sounds like the a lot Of the a lot of the sort of
Approximations like the whole 90 degree Sleep the whole you know the way we Exercise the way we eat A lot of it is just sort of broad brush Stroke things that people can decide I Suppose it You know some exercises better than no Exercise but if you're going to optimize A bit more then okay let's not do it Three hours before bed and there's Always more levels you could go down if You really wanted to right that's like You know with skincare as well there's Like three main things and everything Else is sort of our last five five ten Percent yeah so Okay so we've talked About exercise Um finally nutrition what's 80 20 before We dive into the the Sleep Tech stuff so Day 20 is about sugar right you don't Want sugar it will create a group of Spikes the sugars can be known the Regular sugar that we all know but it Also comes through carbs Um so that is the number one thing that You should try to avoid then if you want To take it to the next level there is What is called fasting right and you Could do what is called the 16 8 so try Not to eat for 16 hours or you could Even avoid eating the whole day you just Have one meal a day but that to me is The extreme I do that but I don't think It's really needed the best thing is if
You could just have a 16 hours window Without eating the reason is digestion Has been consuming in terms of energy For your body then you want to leave Your body alone for 16 hours so it can Be focused on repairing cells instead of The digestion and that should in theory Help you to avoid cancer over Time Mediterranean diet is the other big Thing that is recommended the other Thing you need to pay attention is Alcohol to this point of medical Evidence that Alpha will have a very Negative impact on user quality so you Could have a drop of even 20 percent in Terms of HIV and Deep Sleep Quality if you have alcohol at night and So usually you should stop a drink in Three to five hours before going to bed Or at least you should limit the amount Of alcohol that you think nice okay yeah I'm I I started doing 69 like last week Which uh so yeah doing a you know I Think feeding window is like 12 12 to 8. I I yeah I think I think your tip about Just the the social dinners at 6 PM is Just such a game changer because in my Mind dinner equals 8 PM I just took Completely no reason for that yeah Because then by the time you order it's 9 pm and then it's like obviously gonna Hang out there until 11 p.m like you go To sleep on me now I'll call and and so you you just have
To drink and then you go to bed and then You wake up and you already be happy Yeah so do you do you guys um train when Fasted as well in the morning yes okay So any pre-workouts caffeine freaking Any of that the caffeine yes there are Some debates about that I think Picarattia and also Kim Ferris they talk About that some people like to eat Something popular proteins before Training some people do it immediately After which should still be fine for Your muscles in my case because I fast All day I never eat but actually I think It would be better if you if I remember Correctly from picarattia that you can Take some proteins within a couple of Hours after three Nice so who talked about the age 20 Staff that most people can can do the Thing the actual thing that I will take Away from this is the social events 6 P.m because that I think that is the Same one just completely changes okay Um okay so well I would say eat that 6 P.m together if you can't sleep seven to Nine hours terrain two three times a Week just be active right and try to go For a Mediterranean diet that this is The simplest way that is not too Cumbersome amazing okay so what is sleep Fitness then So the bachelor in sleep Fitness is that When we started working on eight slave
Now you know seven eight years ago we Found that the way that just in general The media and people were talking about Sleep was mostly in the context of Illness so you would hear a lot about Sleep deprivation and insomnacy Batman Like all the bad things yeah but there Was no way to describe what it meant to Be healthy in your sleep and what we Realized is like if you don't have the Language to say I'm healthy in my sleep Then what are people aspiring to how are They measuring it right how we're Talking about it and that's how the Concept of sleep Fitness came about why Sleep Fitness because we believe that Sleep is just like Fitness it is it is Not just an end you're constantly Working on it it's okay you don't sleep Well tonight Um but you're just you know going back Just like when you go back to working on You go back to the gym something you Need to be be optimizing you need to be Actually prioritizing in your life you Can be measuring and so it follows a Very similar pattern to your physical Fitness so we came up with this word and It was a concept that we thought Describes it really well and we made it A key part of our business and our brand And ultimately describes that state of Being healthy in your sleep and the Energy that you get from it
That is the same mindset of going to the Gym right you need to put the effort you Need to put the effort to go to sleep at 10 10 30 even if there are other things That you might want to do because it Will make you feel great it's like going To the gym yeah and if you have like one Or two nights where it's like you're Traveling or what then it's like yeah For X days because you didn't have the Time but you want that mindset where do You think matters to me it matters for My health it matters for my performance So I'm gonna go to bed now because Tomorrow I need to be an IIT performance Okay so we're 2014 you guys have come up With the idea of kind of connecting These dots of like okay why are we Sleeping on a random dumb piece of foam And your friend Max realizes we can put Sensors in the bed like What is what are the sensors doing yeah So so essentially the device is becoming A clinical grade device right we just Reach 99 accuracy at tracking your heart Rate compared to a medical grade device In EKG right which if you think is Pretty honestly dependently from the Fact that one of the founders but it's Pretty shocking right so you're bad Without You winning anything charging Anything you go to bed in this bed now Is able to track your heart rate it's The same degree and level of accuracy of
A medical grid device yeah right so if You just think from a technological Standpoint it's pretty amazing so how Does that compare to Apple watch or our Ring you know these other wearably type Things that allegedly claim to do the Same yeah so there are almost all these Devices reaching almost the same level Of accuracy the key difference with our Devices you don't need to wear anything You don't need to charge anything Right When you charge it not too bad as you Did for the rest of your life and when You wake up if you wanted you can see All the stats about your cardiovascular Health right and this is just the Beginning the next algorithm we're gonna Release will be about respiration and Our respiratory rate has 99 percent Accuracy as well which means we'll be Able to see things like snoring and Sleep apnea without you wearing anything Again you just go to bed the other key Difference between a sleep and most of The wearables is that the data for us is Not the end point it's just the Beginning based on the data then we take Action for you right so based on your Sleep stages we change the temperature Of the bed in the future we'll take Certain actions if you're snoring or if You have sleep apnea to reduce the Snorling in this ecotnia and so we
Really use data as the Step Zero to then Do the work for you while you are Unconscious and improve your performance Why should we care about what is our Heart rate during sleep like what's What's going on there yeah so first and The most basic thing is a couple of days Before you get sick you have fever your Heart rate and rest will change and will Go up and so nowadays I'm able to Predict when I will be sick uh my team Knew that I was getting covered before I Had coffee because my Biometrics started Changing respiration after the other Important thing is cardiovascular health So heart rate and heart rate variability Are a proxy for how rested you are you Are and how stressed you are right and So for example if you stop training or Going to the gym for a couple of months Your heart rate the rest will probably Go up right because you are not training Your your Heart on the other side there is this Methodist called heart rate viability I Don't know if you have ever heard of That but it's substantially a metric That tracks the the space in between the Heartbeats and you want the space to Change all the times because it means That your heart rate is more reactive Things like a boxer right when the boxes Is really fresh the boxer is moving and Adjusting to every little tiny details
As you as the boxer get the tire it Starts becoming in a you know at this Lower Pace more Casa so this proxy is Very indicative of how rested you are so To give you an idea is you let's say you Have a certain number as as Baseline Call it 60. if tomorrow you go and you Run another film the following day this Number will go down because your heart Rate is tired right well instead if you Rest for a couple of days this number Will go up ah okay can you look at heart Rate variability on like yeah yeah you Can it has become a really popular Metric because it is a proxy product and So athletes have used it for a long time Now all these consumer devices use it as Well and what we do is obviously you Don't have to wear anything it's Tracking it for you as well yeah now the Reason why all of these things exist is First because if you go to a Sleep Clinic Um you would be using these same metrics To do that reported Sleep Clinic so we Sort of like took the Sleep Clinic and Just like brought it home and the only Thing we're missing is those brain waves Right but like we are taking the same Metrics and saying well the same things You would discover at a clinic that you Probably you know at least in the United States will pay a lot of money for and Have to find Insurance to pay for you do
It at home you do it every night Um and then on top of that as much as Describing you also get this benefit That not only do you get all of the Sleep staging classification and Sleep Quality but you are getting that same Metric that you get on a wearable Without the wearable heart rate and Breast respiratory rate heart Variability which like he mentioned There's the disease certified the Intervention of like one man getting Sick am I getting stressed we also see You know women during pregnancy like Their heart rates change um carrying Like two hard pigs in your body your Body is more and sort of doing extra Work but you can also see the trends Over time like we have a lot of our Members who they tend to reach out to my Toe personally through DM him on Twitter And say hey Um I either like was getting sick I was Able to notice it on my on my eight Sleep pod because I've been sitting on For so long so you have trended data That maybe before the wearable era Before the eight sleep product type era You would only get it when you were Going to the doctor right you go to the Doctor they would take all your Biometrics now you have them at home a Few weeks ago we saved the first life uh So I personally reach out to me and he'd
Say look uh I was not feeling great I Checked my data on a sleep I saw that The Biometrics were all over the place Compared to my usual Baseline I went Straight to ER and they found an issue I Had a surgery and that's it in my life In my life a cardio surgery So that is an example and then other People wrote me because we helped them With covet both by you know measuring The Biometrics and through temperature Um we see people with Cancers uh using Our product that both because of Temperature because they have hot Flashes and also because we measure the Biometrics women in menopause at the end Of the day what you will see happening In the next Three to five years is medical devices And consumer devices are merging right Apple watch is not competing with Rolex This is not really a watch you have a Poster and all the time but at the end Of the day it's a medical device to Continuously track your health Our device does the same but the Advantage is you use it every single day Because you go to bed every single day Right and what you will be able to build Is you are you're building a database of Your health that you will be able to Share with your doctor so the doctor Will have a snapshot immediately of Anything that is happening in your body
Knowing what the Baseline is and you Will also know how you're aging because Your heart rate today is different from Your heart rate in three years from now And 10 years from now and we'll be able To let you know how you're doing Compared to other peers and then machine Learning in AI will be able to predict The likelihood you develop a certain Type of disease All this is coming the step there is Always to collect the data in an Accurate way which is happening across The board and then is when technology Will really deliver the next value yeah Think of computers in the 70s when they Were not connected to the internet People's area why do I need these how Can this be helpful But then as once that everyone in the World started having a computer and then There was the internet and then the Mobile Innovation and now everyone has a Phone in the hands which is a computer Nothing right here so like Even when I was uh when I was working as A doctor there was a lot of talk around Personalized pharmacology and I Personalized medication because it's Just a bit weird that we take the same Dose for occasionally for a drug that's Like if you want between 30 kg and 150 Kg take this dose that's such a huge Range and people are like yeah it's at
Some point we're going to be able to Have more personal life therapies and I Guess this is just that except for all Of your health data correct it would be Like uh getting a physical exam every Single night you know when they in the Past uh to our past they used to say oh You should go to the doctor once a year To do you know the basic exams the thing Is gonna happen every single night and The data will can be compared across Millions of people at the same time so Medicine will just move Faster right we have an Advisory board With some of the best sleep professors In the world people from Harvard stand For Japan Colombia and the reason why They joined the board is in one night we Collect more data than what they have Seen in their whole career Yeah a friend of mine at University is Also a doctor was having some issues With sleeping I was like oh yeah to Sleep like 11 hours a night doesn't work And so she did this kind of Sleep Clinic Study thing at like one of the local Hospitals and it was such a huge like Song and dance she had to take like Three days off it was like a whole thing They could only do like two patients at A time ridiculously expensive obviously The NHS pay for it so she didn't have to Pay and then she had to like she was Ill One of the day so she had to cancel the
Appointment and we were just thinking my God like how much did it cost the system To cancel that appointment and all they Were doing was cameras and heart rate And a good thing on ahead and like that Would be a place yeah but let me tell You also this there is you know what you Sleep apnea right so it's this Difficulty to breathe during the night And this is gonna impact Your Sleep Quality and can I also have a negative Impact on your brain and definitely it Will make sure that you don't feel good When you wake up because you didn't have Proper sleep yeah so there are uh a Billion people in the world with sleep Happy Do you want to know how many a billion Yeah I don't know they have 90 okay and the Reason is simple a lot of people they Guess they have it because usually it's The partner noticing it but they don't Want to go through the same experience Of your friend they don't want to go to The doctor get the recommendation and All the prescription for a sleep study Go in a hospital sleep there cover with Sensors no one wants to do that and so They say you know what yeah maybe it has A puppy and maybe not but who cares Let's move on and 90 of people with Sleep apnea gain a billion people don't Know
Yeah Um why is sleep happening at that Sleep apnea is bad because substantially Oxygen is not properly circulating in Your body it doesn't get to your brain Usually you know when you have sleep Apnea you tend to do that right right There's some snoring yeah it's like Snoring 2.0 yeah but to a point where Oxygen doesn't get to the brain and this Is gonna impact on your your whole sleep Staging and so you're not going to get The proper amount of deep sleep and You're not going to get the appropriate Amount of rain even if you sleep 11 Hours You have the Sleep Quality of someone Who's like a couple of hours yeah and It's it degenerates right so it is a Disease and a condition that like will Just get worse over time will get worse With aging it is highly correlated with Being overweight or obese but it's just Not because of that right so like there Are also people who may be like good With our weight but they have it Um and so it's really hard to catch like It's such like sort of like a silent Killer yeah Yeah Um one critique I've heard of this whole Like data defying all of our health data Is similar to what some people say Around blood tests so the in the U.S
There seems to be a culture of like see Your doctor every year and get a Biomarkers etc etc in the UK it's a bit More like uh don't don't see your doctor Unless you have a problem and then You'll do a blood test because what's The point of doing a blood test every Like maybe you'll catch an incidental Thing which is like wasn't affecting Your life anyway what's the point of Doing an MRI every year because a lot of The incidental tumors that you might Find will never cause a problem and so You're wasting a lot of healthcare Resources in doing these pointless tests And you're making people feel anxious About their health because now they have All the data all the time how do you Guys deal with that well before you go Inside now you have very strong I'd say I would pay attention to who is saying That right like obviously depending on The health system in every country the Recognition will be different but like When it is the government who needs to Provide all these services and that's Based on your taxation and all that well That they're going to try to keep you Away from going into the system because It costs money but the reality is you Care about your body and so who should You be listening to and what wouldn't it Be better if you knew even if that tumor Or that you know cyst or that muscular
Uh issue what's there would you prefer To know that not know that something is Happening to you I think the answer to me is I don't know How many people know that but Um if you have pancreatic cancer and you Detect it early you have 90 chances to Leave if you detect it late you have 90 Chances to die And so assuming you want to keep living Your life you want to spend time with Your loved ones and knowing what's Happening in your body and optimizing Your health I just think it's in the Best interest of all of us This will help you not just to extend Your lifespan but to extend your health Span right my grandma I think she dies In the 90s and I mean when when she was 90 years old in 1995 but she spent the Last 20 years of her life really sitting On a chair she had a neat tooth it was One night that she this happened right So she had a an arterial problem and Since then she couldn't move in our part Of her body that could have been avoided And she could have lived you know 20 Years of her life being Dynamic and Spending that time with her friend Children Yeah yeah I a few a few years ago I I Discovered just the world of anti-aging And Longevity and stuff and yeah before Then I just hadn't considered it I I
Always just thought oh you know I guess I guess we die what else and then I was I started reading the stuff I was like Oh my god of course we want to live a Longer and healthier like why wouldn't You like because sometimes people tell Me oh I don't want to leave long they're Fine but do you want to enjoy your life After the last day yeah right because I Don't think you want to see it on a Chair in front of the TV for 20 years of Your life right from 65 or 70 to 90. Right so this is why this matters then You don't have to look at the metrics Every single day some people even some Customers few of them but uh say oh I I Feel anxious with the dip and that is an Advantage of our product because you Don't see it you don't wear it yeah Right and so the link is there whenever That is needed share it with your doctor And the doctor will be able to take Better actions even if you go for you Know the more UK approach the you are Describing word oh look I don't want to Know anything until when I need to have A problem that day having the Baseline Of your data for the past 20 years will Become relevant and so let these devices Do their job in the background even if You don't open the app but that day when Something happened because it will Happen then your doctor you will be able To provide your doctor more information
To help you live a longer and healthier One yeah yeah it's it's amazing just how Often we used to have this issue with With patients that would come in have Some like chest pain or something you do An ECG or EKG and you would see Something weird like as a bit of Estimation there like I'm not really Sure and you're like okay what's their Baseline I don't know it's like have They ever had an ECG before maybe but Like maybe it was a different hospital Systems don't talk to each other they've Probably never had one before I'm like Oh okay well how bad is this thing Okay we should probably just keep him in Overnight for the next five days anyway Put them on cardiac monitoring just in Case This is Yeah Um yeah no I'm I'm massively bullish on Knowing the health data for myself Because like yes if I was trying to run A government-funded healthcare system I wouldn't want to do it for all 70 Million people in the UK because I Thought a lot of money and maybe the ROI If that's not great but as an individual I'm sure you know I'm gonna I'm gonna do Whatever I can to to kind of maximize This Um okay so heart rate heart rate Variability respiratory rate
Presumably the sensors in the mattress Are looking at those things and figuring Out what stage of sleep you're in is That fair to say yeah together with Movement and temperature movement and Temperature okay so for someone who's Who doesn't know much about space like What are the different stages of sleep And what are like how how do you know That we're in set stages of sleep yeah So I always think there is a medical Explanation where I could be more Technical yeah And and probably not the most helpful But the bottom line is you have what is Called light sleep this is the teacher Will give to government grammar okay so You have the light sleep and then you Have deep and then you have right okay Right what you really care about is the Amount of deep and the amount of rent Okay both in terms of time like an hour Plus whatever depends on how much how Long you sleep and then it's also Percentage right so for me if I explain Example specifically anything below 18 Deep sleep assuming I sleep eight hours I I will wake up feeling terrible Between 18 and 21 I feel pretty good and About 21 I'm a superhero and you figure That out for yourself yeah by looking at Your stats being like what do I feel so Good today and it's like oh I have 20 25 exactly okay usually the range
Recommended is anywhere between 15 and 25 okay and then it can be that's right Deep sleep so what percentage of your Sleep time you are in deep sleep mode Okay anywhere between if a commanded is Anywhere between 15 and 25 okay uh and Then the ram is very similar in terms of Ranges usually slightly higher so more In the 20 to 25 but it could go as low As 15. then things change because for Example if you're a sleep deprived let's Say that tonight you don't sleep for Whatever reason because you're in the Hospital you can't sleep and tomorrow You finally sleep the first thing that Your body will prioritize is deep sleep Okay and so tomorrow night you will get Way more deep sleep than Ram okay deep Sleep is usually the physical recovery For your body well instead the ram is The mental recovery Ram is when you are Dreaming REM is when your brain is Reassessing all the information that Collected during the day and it's Putting the information in the library So you're developing memory and all that Kind of thing but the number one thing That your body will always give priority To is deep sleep because it's the Physical performance that your body Physically needs to recover first and Then your brain will record right so It's likely important at all or is that Just a gateway to a deep in room the
Reality is now that important is just That your body is inefficient and you End up with 50 of the time of sleep Being light sleep or awake okay and that Is why we have this hypothesis where we Can compress your sleep because we Believe we can make you more efficient By helping you to fall asleep faster get More deep sleep faster and we can Compress the amount of light sleeping a Lot that's okay so deep sleep and REM Sleep what is and I guess landscape in These three stages what is happening to The stats that help you figure out what Stage you're in so rhyme with the Easiest to detect because you're now Moving but your heart rate is Accelerated because you're probably Dreaming or anyway you are in a certain Physical yeah and that's where if people Wake up they have sleep paralysis Because they're like oh I can't Move them what's going on except okay Because your brain deactivates the the Movement of the body because you are Dreaming otherwise you could start Walking or you could start moving your Arms but I even like dead still yeah so On the sensors there's like no movement Yeah but the heart is accelerated okay Fine because something is happening and You break it right so that is the Easiest then Um you have a deep sleep well instead
Usually is when your heart rate goes to The lowest point and so a certain type Of biometric like respiration is really Slow Um and heart rate is really slow and Usually if you're not moving you're not Completely still but obviously the Amount of movement of your body is uh You're not tossing and turning Um instead light sleep your heart rate And respiration have a different Behavior and after Then the best way to track your sleep Would be also to combine these Biometrics with brain waves which is not They tell you about your electrical Activity in your brain yeah but Customers don't want to wear a band Right so there were a couple of staff That try to develop these bands to try To be more accurate at this little Detection but the reality is they fail Because customers don't want to wear This device are connected yeah okay so Gold standard would be with the with the Brainwave monitor which is what they do In sleep studies yeah but like Realistically nobody else yeah but the Reality is all devices like ours will be Medical grade at heart rate and Cardiovascular diseases right so after Adventure it will be medical grade and Respiration which means snowing yeah uh You can be medical grade at temperature
And that is valuable because you can see Pregnancy obviously if you have fever Um hot flashes and things like that Sleep even if you go in a sleep clean Usually the average accuracy is around 80 percent so medical grade accuracy is Eighty percent Um and that can be achieved by devices Like Us by combining all these different Metrics even if you don't have brain Waves nice bit of a random question Let's say someone's listening to this They can't afford the eight Sleep Mattress and but they're a bit of a you Know I like computers like stuff how Hard is it to build a small mattress in Your bedroom like What do you need 100 Max do it yeah Eight years ago Max would probably talk More about that but it's the hardware is Probably not the like the hardest part Like putting together some sensors and You know wheeze left on the very first Prototypes and we started the company we Moved to San Francisco for the first Year uh we used to have all the first Prototypes we were our office was an Apartment so in the bedroom where we Slept you know with all the first Prototypes and so you know someone could Put it together it's the algorithms We've spent now so many years of the Company collecting that information Trainings algorithms working in
Partnerships with universities or with Companies that do medical grade devices To actually feed that sort of gold Standard information into the training Of our algorithms and that just takes a Long time and it's really hard to do it With this like contact with us right Sensors like that's not easy okay we Challenge anyone to do it yeah yeah I Think the big challenge is usually when You want to start scaling right if you Want to build one device you can build It probably atone it's very hard but you Can try the the biggest challenge they Had the last song that we had learned is Once you start moving thousands of units Per month uh getting a level of quality That applies in the equivalent way to All the units yeah that is really hard Yeah so I guess the first prototypes you Are having to get the Raspberry Pi with Some random ass sensors yeah you've got This data what the hell does it mean It's like maybe you growth in like okay Roughly but over time it becomes a more Sophisticated system and the other Challenge is like everything in life Right going from 0 to 80. we can do it But the last 20 percent it's really Really high so in terms of accuracy Getting maybe to 70 80 percent you can Get there but get into 99 is really hard And 80 accuracy is not that valuable Yeah not fair play Okay so we've got the
Device we've got the sensors and we can Now tell with 99 certainty are we in Light sleep are we in deep Sleep are we In REM sleep why why is that good like What what action are we taking from that In our specific case which is the main Difference compared to wearables is we Adjust temperature right because each The each sleep stage needs a different Type of temperature as we were saying Deep should be called the ram it should Be warmer neutral and that is how we Give you up to 34 more deep sleep and up To 32 percent that is equal so is it Like Liquid nitrogen going through the Mattress like what's what's going on in Prototype V1 that you could make in in a In your backyard you can use water uh That is what we use so you need to build The thermal engine the thermal engine Can heat and cool this water and so the Outgo is detecting the different stages And based on the stage can automatically Adjust the temperature and warm you up Or cool you down yeah yes my Sister-in-law got a night sleep um Mattress as a birthday present a few Months ago and they came with a little Tank thing yeah Um and she just swears by it now and She's like last night my brother Switched it off because I married um and She was she was just a little bit she
Was at work in the morning she was like Why did I sleep so badly and he was like Oh sorry I switched it off and she was Like oh my why did you switch it off so She's our massive supporter of uh Amazing Um so okay so you figure out what state If you're in And then you modulate the temperature of The bed accordingly and you I guess you Can see before and after and you can run I suppose if you wanted to you could Randomize a group of people to not to do That like one of the nights or something And see what difference does it make Yeah yeah so we had Um several hundreds people uh where we Tracked their sleep Data before using The Pod and after using the Pod okay and What we saw was after the 34 more deep Sleep up to 32 percent but firstly Quality up to 19 recovery then there was Another interesting Discovery so we are Able to slow down your heart rate by up To two heart beats per minute to give You an idea that is the equivalent of Three months of in-test training and we Give it to you in the first week yeah The other thing is we are able to Improve your HIV we are talking about HRV to an equivalent of what your HIV Was 10 years earlier so we make your HIV Stats 10 years younger um Yeah it's just to be clear it's not that
We reinvented the wheels there is plenty Of medical evidence that proves that Camera regulation includes sleep so this Was already proven before they sleep and It was just the first device to really Bring this to Consumer on a large scale And making sure that people like you Like us like your sister can just get Better sleep Um heart rate variability so I was Interviewing someone yesterday who's a Neuroscientist who talks about like Performance and Leadership and stuff and Talked a lot about heart rate Variability as being like a marker of Stress Um what's what's going on there for People that might not be familiar like Why why is it a marker of stress is a Market of physical stress not Governmental stress right if you're Stressed or not that is not going to be Reflective it can be directionally Reflected but the number one thing is Physical stress so the example I always Make is the one of the marathon right so If you do a Marathon today tomorrow will Be reflected in your HIV and your HIV Will be worse than what it usually is Okay but instead if you are fully rested Your HIV will go up and app usually is a Positive sign for HIV Okay so you want a low heart rate but a High heart rate variability because
That's yeah because that shows that your Heart rate is more reactive to the Things that you're doing which shows That you have just more interesting like Your boxer analogy being a bit more Reactive yeah correct and so however is Is that a stat that changes throughout The day the heart rate variability or is It like it changes during the day okay Any changes during the night okay so Also a way to look at that is to look at The Delta of what your HIV was in the First deep sleep yeah and in the last Deep sleep and that is the epoxy of Recording But the bottom line is yeah it changes During the day and during the night okay And so if it's high during the day that Means in the morning when you want to Measure it is when you wake up okay what Is the most important and the higher the Better The higher the better when you wake up And you and the eight State mattress Does that because it tells you what it Was just before you woke up yeah imagine That it's like a tank of energy yeah This is just an analogy right from a Medical standpoint it's not like that But imagine that it's a pack of energy And you know the higher the Baton Because it's full the lower and the Worse because it's empty if you have a Marathon the previous day you'll be
Empty okay now an important thing a lot Of people that we see especially on Twitter are Community shares or stats is They say well you have a really hard HRV But then my HRV is not there it's like It varies with age right so there's sort Of different ranges that are considered To be like healthy versus if you're like An athlete like athletes tend to have it Higher but also it's important to build Your personal Baseline yeah it's very Personal yeah it's very personal and you Want to compare it to your own Baseline And how it Trends over time we cannot Compare mine and yours yeah well instead For HR and offer heart rate address you Can more or less do it for me HIV is Completely personal you need the Baseline and then it's above or below Your Baseline okay okay is there Anything we can do like during the day To affect our heart rate variability or So okay so it's heart rate variability More like a lagging indicator or if if You were to just change it magically Would it actually make you feel better In any any kind of way you can actually Imagine that there's a proxy for how for Recovery how recovery is your body so The way you can increase it is by Resting today and tomorrow will very Likely be higher yeah Um it's proven that through meditation You can help HIV as well so it's really
A rest and Recovery and the other thing You want to pay attention is if you're Training a lot you want to measure it Because if it's too low it's when you my Risk injuries because the tank is low And that means you're less recovered and So you need a bit more rest to be over Training yeah but there is a bit of a Lag like if you if you begin doing Training especially the types of Training was describing earlier with Like content General training like Strength training you should start Seeing an improvement in your HRV over Time it's like your body really is Becoming that more reactive you're Becoming more athletic physically in Their body and so there is some lag in Some of these influential factors into Your hrb nice This is a bit of a bit of a lot of Potentially um sympathetic and Parasympathetic nervous system how does That tie into this sort of stuff if at All Yeah they're connected and they're Connected in the way you sleep but even Those are super personal and they can Change over time Um but they are also connected to Methods like HRV and HR yeah so this is What I was talking to you about with This neuroscientist yesterday she was She was saying that a lot of people who
Are in high stress jobs like Traders and Things will will be in sort of stress Mode High sympathetic activation for Most of the day and then they get home You know then and they're even more Stressed because they haven't spent Enough time with the kids and all that Kind of stuff and you can see that Reflected in a high heart rate and Presumably a low heart rate variability Because now exactly they're in like kind Of cortisol and blood pressure mode yeah Which is where it sleep helps you right Because we can reduce your heart rate as I was saying by up to two heart beats Per minute and we can increase your HIV Taking you 10 years younger so Temperature is an intervention to Potentially get you from that like five Or flight to the state where your body Says okay now I'm in a protected space I Can rest yeah 10 can have that effect And sort of like when you think very Basically right evolutionary we used to Sleep outdoors and caves and temperature Was such a big indicator of our ability To like is there fire animals are going To stay away I'm going to be protected What's that heat like right and so it's Just like so fascinating how our bodies Have evolved to use temperature in light As just an indicator of looking up if I'm protected I can fall asleep I can Press I can go into that remember I'm
Not moving versus no I'm not protected I Need to stay Tits It's really hard to be able to do it Because unless probably you're gonna Have but if you want to improve your Sleep quality and other ways to do a Salmon a cold plunge a sound like And so this thermal shock yeah helps you Relax and fall asleep faster and get Back to sleep and the reason so Peter Latia talks about that as well and there Is plenty of evidence the reason why I'm Mentioning this is thermal shocks so Playing with your body temperature is Proven in different degrees you have a Massive impact on your systems and its Good quality so if you are in a hotel or They have a sauna and a cold plunge you Should try to do that and you will sleep Like a baby if you use a dry bath right If you do bath in a cold shower so to an Extent that can be helpful yeah nice uh Okay so I have been talking to a few People about about exape and they look At the website and they look at the Price tag and then they think oh my God Like That it's completely non-starter Um but also In fairness people would Have left the price tag for the Tesla Roadster and what the uh how do you Guys think about pricing it's a very Premium product that most people can't
Afford and yet presumably your impact Your the mission is to help more people Yeah what's going on there I have two Answers yeah and I started from the Consumer answer and then why we are Priceline here like that so if you Finance our product I think is around 60 Bucks a month that is two bucks per Night it's less than a coffee so if you Care about your sleep and you assume That what we are telling you is true That will improve your sleep which is True are you gonna pay two bucks a night To get better sleep and improve your Health and improve your daily Performance that that is the question I Would maybe then The reason why it's priced like that is Because uh the the type of technology That we use is really advanced and for The time being it's still expensive it's Not that we are having any different Margin from what an average company Would have so we're just running a Business and we need to be able to you Know sustain the business so we can keep Evolving that as you were saying we Always make reference to Tesla our Largest investor was the first investor In Tesla so this is our Roadster price Will go down over time but at the end of The day you're using one of the most Sophisticated Technologies on Earth and For now uh the only way to run a
Business is to run it at that price Um what's the what does the roadmap look Like if you can share some details there Um there will be more than I asked going Back to their personal analogy Um over time the price will become more And more affordable right we want to Democratize health and sleep Um but then there are another bunch of Products that we're working on some of Them still focus on thermal regulation Because there is plenty of medical Evidence that it helps but the end goal Is a device where Alexander and I were Already sleeping in where we control Light and noise in the future will Control oxygen air quality and air Temperature and we will do a full body Scanning every single night so expecting Three to five years from now to do a Substantial MRI every single day nice And potentially detect things like Cancer kidney stones and cysts sick how Do I get on the beta tester list Everyone wants that it's co-founders Um but one of the things that I read was That you had some difficulties building The company initially and both of you Being I guess quite foreigners in America what was that experience like in The early days yeah so I mean first I I None of us graduated from the big ivy League uh universities in in the US Um in my case I also had this real
Background as a business lawyer and I Was coming from a different industry so Any I would say credibility I had built Before it was not really applying to Silicon Valley because I didn't know Anyone in Silicon Valley and I think was Very similar for you and so I think it's Just part of the game right in Silicon Valley a lot is about reputation and Trust people are giving you money Because they believe that you're a great Founder and you can make something Happen that no one else could build yeah And so they always try the best Investors to find data points about you What they do in a positive way right and So usually going at the notice certain Universities are talking to other people That know you is really important in the Valley and we didn't have that at the Beginning but then I think over time we Built hopefully that reputation through Y combinator then causal Avengers Investing with and then Founder's fine Right so one little step at a time I I I think now we probably producers But yeah I think it's so incredible and We hear often you know Matteo being from Middle East is also from Italy and he's Actually he dropped out of school in Italy started building businesses pretty Early on which is is a rarity I think in In Europe in general for people who drop Out of college and he did it and so none
Of us had any of that so that pattern Matching the toes describing but then It's incredible to think that it may Have taken us a little longer but once We launched our crowdfinder campaign in 2015 who Um actually we that was available Internationally so there may be some People listening to this who've got our Very very first product Um once we launched that that campaign Was really successful it quickly made Over a million dollars in sales and Ended up costing close to 2 million Pre-orders then that was that pattern That people needed to see to say well These people were building this thing That maybe we didn't think they could Deliver actually our building something People want and that's when things Really started changing for us and it's Incredible that there's still that Opportunity and especially we see it in Silicon Valley where trust can be built Through that hard work and through Actually proving that you are building Something people want to pay for and you Can kind of get into the network that You're looking to get into just through That one Okay yeah that makes a lot of sense and We ended up then raising 160 million Over time right from Most of the best investors in the valley
Yeah and so I think coming from Italy And coming from Europe that was uh one Of the most Um impressive things I have learned About the US where if you work hard and If you prove yourself then the Opportunity will come so yeah maybe the First years we had some challenges out There didn't but then at the end of the Day the opportunity was still there and We we have proven it which means that Anyone else can have access to the same Um any advice for budding entrepreneurs That love kind of the story they're like Oh yeah that sounds sick you you take an Idea you literally invent a thing and Then it's worth 500 million dollars like Any any top tips for for people who want To want to get into the entrepreneurship Thing Um I mean keep going keep building right That is what I always say that now is Running a company is like at roller Coasters or apps and downs and you Should then fool yourself when Throughout the app but you shouldn't be Depressed when there are the Downs right At the end of the day you need to just Find the medium and the average and Stick with that what sort of towns have You guys had Um every down you can think of Multiple times not even a single time But you go particularly with Hardware
Right there was a big hype at the Beginning then there was a time where a Lot of other companies failed so it was Really really hard to raise money unless You were having incredible metrics we Were able to raise that money at the Time but again particularly when you Raise money you should always think that You misunder the investors 99 will say No and one is going to say yes and so if You just think mentally getting 99 knows Is tough because you have a dream you Have a vision you believe in that you Know how hard your team is working and How great they are and just being not Hit in the face punching the face with No no no and at the end of the day it Sounds like is it's not about you from The investors but it's something like Saying look you know this could be a Good business my baby is not going to be A billion dollar business but you just Need one yes so just keep going What other uh Downs have you had to make Uh maybe outside the realm of Fundraising I think I would say probably That after building the first product Right like when you're early on and the Reason why Capital Metro is talking a Lot about Investors is so important is Because we are innovating so there's a Lot of like our indeed investment in Building the product but the ultimate Proxy successful business is whether
People are buying it and how much are They willing to pay for it right so That's where you keep a lot of your Focus on the day-to-day but in in those In the early stages that first year we Did a crowdfunding campaign and we put Out the concept we have to build pretty Touch with this product and we have Shown it to a lot of people we put it Out there and there's like all these People who want to buy it and now we're Like well we have to build this product And we went through y combinator we had This amazing opportunity after getting Reductor toys to get in right so again The No No No and then he finally get a Yes Um and after we finish the right Combinator they said well now you need To go and like build these products and Mateo and Max moved to China to build The team there to actually manufacture These products and you know those those Months are really hard because even Though maybe now you raise money um no Money is not the angle you need they'll Turn you stupid and willing to love it And there needs to be more people buying It and so there were a lot of challenges To figure it out there it was completely New space for us none of us have built Hardware products before then you get That product and you need to ship it and Then maybe you start seeing your shoes
Or maybe it's not the product that you Ultimately want to build because we Discovered very early on when we built That product is that that product was Tracking your data but it didn't have The cooling functionality which was key To do full thermal regulation and that Was the number one request that those Early backers of the company that built That funded us with our crop funding Campaign requested right they said give Us cooling give us Cooling and so in the Back of your mind as an entrepreneur you Say well I don't have that yet and I Don't have the money to build it and I Don't have the team to build it right And so it was sort of the throw of Sorrows that why commentator talks about Is like you're going through this period Of time it was really really hard and You want to get to the next Milestone You want to prove that then you can Raise Capital to then build the product That now you know people really want to Send that stuff yeah It seems like Hardware is just super Tough yeah like especially when you're Like You and Max move to China like wow What's the story there yeah so the story Is I go to her and I say look things are Not happening in manufacturing I need to Go to China and so she says oh cool when Are you gonna go and I say tomorrow did
You say oh cool and when I back and I Say once I fix it and so I came back Three four months later right Um after so were you trying to remotely Manufacture from Factory to China in Italy yeah we had another person who was There But he needed some help there to make Sure we could accelerate things and so I Just moved I just moved there we rented An apartment in Shenzhen yeah and we Lived there so actually it was a great Experience for me right now I can look Back to say like I live for some time in China yeah but it's really hard for a Couple of reasons first you need a lot Of capital yeah right both to develop it Second is really slow compared to Software software you can release the Feature and yeah right that thing Usually if you're really fast you can Release a new product every year the Average company needs 18 to 24 months to Release a new Avatar you need more Departments because you need obviously People for supply chain people for Quality people for manufacturing all the Logistic one inside the software company Doesn't have that cost so even the fixed Cost of personnel on our employees is Way higher and more than anything you Need to be able to forecast demand Because right from now the holidays is Coming how much are we going to sell you
Need to build that unit if you're under Build then you don't sell into a build Then you have these in control in your Balance sheet and so the complexity of The business is is very different as the CEO is exciting but at the same time is Also the month it's very rewarding Because then people do use it at home Yeah and that is I think something Fascinating we talk about this a lot Because Hardware is really hard has the Word heart in it it's like it really is Really complex but it's fascinating when You go to a restaurant we were there a Few months ago in San Francisco to Restaurant with part of our team and Some of us were wearing swag from the Company we have the logo and the waiter Who was um serving our table said oh I See you all work at eight sleep and said I have a pod and I love it and it's just So incredible and it happens to us often We have people on the team who are Boarding a plane in an airport and be Like oh you work any sleep and so it's Just really cool to think that you go Through all the hardships which I think Any kind of business goes to even a Small business right even Non-venture-backed but then you're Building something in our case that Helps people sleep better live healthier It's like the physical product they get To use it every day and I think it's
Part of what keeps us here is such a Unique Journey That's really cool like I where Um kind of dabbling with working with a Company to try and make some Hardware Stuff now Um like productivity accessories and Like trying to manufacture our own Mechanical keyboard for computer It's something about physical product That seems really cool because it's like Always with you yeah in a way that Software is even though software is way Easier Um that's pretty cool um So team would have grown from the three Of you to now 100 plus what were the the Challenges and I guess Um scaling up the the team over time Um challenges is always at the end of The day culture meaning when you build a Company it's like you cannot be friend With everyone right you have your own Culture you have your own attitude I Come from sport so I'm you know we call Our culture demanding and supportive I'm Really demanding in expectations then if Things don't go as planned I would be Supportive and I will have your back but I expect you to give 100 right and so You need to find people that you know Share the same values not because they Are right or wrong but because this is How we are as a Founders and as a
Founding team Um and so in the early days probably we Made also a bunch of mistakes in hiring No we never hired bad people but maybe They were not the type of people that Were the perfect scene I think now we Became way better than that in the past Two years the the quality of people that We have hired is extremely impressive if We if you guys think of like you know Your the like okay so in in every Company there are some people in your Team that you think if I could clone you 100 times over I would press that button A zillion times what are the Characteristics of those sorts of people And I'm asking because someone listening To this has probably got a normal job And they probably want to be an a player In their normal job but they might not Know like what what does an a player Actually look like so so for you in in a Sleep like what are the things that make Someone just absolute rock star of where You're just like I want to clone this Person a million times over there's one Indicator we talked about this like last Week that I told you I identified this Applies for people who start with us When they're a little bit earlier in Their career because then executives are Different and you can talk about that Which is really fascinating but for People who are earlier in their career
What you notice in in what we have seen At eight sleep is that Every six to 12 months this person is Different Because their rate of growth and Learning is so Steep and they're just Changing they're becoming better at a Rate that is just outpacing anyone else And so when we look at these people you Know you have these sort of cohort of Employees that may be doing the same Year you say wow this person right here Is completely different they just mature They've changed this other person hasn't They're not growing at the same way and That to me has become like the quickest Way to see how there's like a real rock Star versus just someone putting really Great and solid and 80 20 is usually They care they have high intensity they Have velocity and they grow but we have Five elements that I measure probably on Exactly the first one is what is called Clavicle thinking so the quality of Setting the priorities and the order Yeah which you will attach it right so What to do and in what order quite good Thank you yeah the second is what I call Menagerial efficiency so the ability to Do less to do more with less if you Think what we are doing well we are in Revenue no more than nine digits uh Brand rate being 100 people in other is Very small we are really really
Efficient and that is reflected in our Bottom line and then how much we burn The left so managerial efficiency the Third is velocity I'm obsessed with Velocity if you tell me that something Takes you a month I will ask you to Break it down in 30 pieces okay what can You do tomorrow yeah Um the last one is the obsession for Talent we really believe in the quality Of talent finding the talent and Developing them and the last one is bad Razer which is this concept of growth What are you doing today you are not Doing last quarter why how can you give Me data points measurable data points That you are better at something and if You're an executive I want to see the Same in your team so who is doing Something they were now doing before how Did you grow them Um What are some things that you guys have Learned over time have you evolved as Leaders and as executives are asking Very selfishly because now I'm managing Team 13 people and I've always just like I feel like I'm about this yeah for Me it was really a journey because I Mean when we started the company I was Pretty young and I had never really Managed people so Mattel is a testament To is a a witness to my process there It's a very I would say emotional
Journey and if you don't learn to sort Of understand the emotions that drive You in the decisions in your analysis of Your team in the day-to-day what Motivates you what gives you energy what Doesn't and to tame and manage your Emotions Um you can't really grow as a leader Um and I think that was something you Know material is to see other companies So he has my manager I report to him That we've worked a lot on together and So it really is an emotional Journey More than you think it's just being Productive and working and working more Um and then the second thing that I Really learned in that journey is all About the people when you to hire the Right people when you're able to attract The right people to your team you can Make a huge difference as a leader if You don't have the right people you Can't you know the coastline is one of Our investors says the team he builds The company you build at the end of the Day so that is really key but then in my Case and I think for anyone listening Who is maybe not experiencing what They're about to set themselves to do or Very young you can also you have to Complement yourself with people that Maybe don't even work for you but there Are like advisors or mentors outside and That's been really valuable for me learn
From other people who have done what You're looking to do and you have to Learn really fast you need to be able to Go to into those conversations very Humbly and ask a lot of questions and Then bring that knowledge back into your Own practice as a leader The reason emotional trait that is Really at the end of the day to An era when I was talking at the Beginning is you you always second guess Yourself sometimes seeing okay how you Approach these and what is our culture And then goes back to what I was saying Earlier you need to know who you are and You need to build the company around That because again it's like friendship You cannot be friend with someone who Doesn't share your own value you can Force yourself but it's not gonna last And so at the end of the day you need to Understand okay what really matters for Me it goes back to this concept of our Culture of being demanding and Supportive you think like a sports team You're not a family sometimes in the Early days of family we're not right There is a match here yeah and top Performance needs to be rewarded more Than anyone else we are in the playoffs And we want to win the title the Championship and so that is that the Intensity that is required we work hard Extremely hard we value velocity
And this is how you will always you know What what you should expect which Doesn't mean is universally good Just be aware before you join us because Then if there is not a match you will Not be happy And we're not going to compromise on Some of the things right so probably This world compromised before or maybe I Should compromise here maybe no I Shouldn't push for that yeah instead no Velocity is key for us I will always Push you to get things done in half the Time yeah How do you balance the striving for to Achieve the big goal in the big mission And the metrics and stuff versus Enjoying the present moment and enjoying The ride as you're as you're going Through So that is not my strength They coach me and they give me advice Um I think everyone is different right And it's also based on your age the State of your career what you're doing But at the end of the day the key thing Is to working on A project that you believe matters and So there is always these distinction Sometimes in the starter World between Missionaries and mercenaries and Definitely if you talk to our people They are missionaries right we have a Vision where we want to get to
Potentially detect cancer we want to Save lives we want to help the people Live a longer of their life and so that Is very from a motivational standpoint Is is massive for a lot of people Compared to going to a company where you Sell ads and you just monetize right you Know uh selling cook ads on the digital Platform here we are really helping Millions of people uh to live a better Life or save their life And so that's what I think is the number One driver and also the reason why a lot Of people at our company they have been With us for so long even if he is such An intense place right because it Becomes hard to find another company Where you as an engineer an ml engineer You're saving lives and there are a lot Of ml jobs But if you're working on the cart for an E-commerce startup just to convert more Purchases it's not the people interested In your life yeah yeah I think on the Enjoyment on daily Um yeah it's something that I think the Way we compensate that is that we are Different as Founders and I think that's Why also a lot of people say well it's Great when you have a partner in Business because you try to seek like That complimentary conversations right Where how do you remind each other of Sort of the journey you've been through
And like what you still have to achieve And there's a balance like Mateo's Definitely is a CEO and the vision Setting person in the company the one That's always pushing us forward like Pushing people to achieve more and then Maybe I play a role if they're like hey Look at look at this and like look at What we've done but for eight sleep I Think for companies that are really Selling amazing products to Consumers The best way to remind yourself of the Journey is every day when you wake up And you see in our case we see a lot of This on Twitter people talking about how Much you love your product because you Know maybe last today you have like a Terrible day or you know you lost a Candidate you wanted to hire or today You're about to have like a really Complicated day but when you wake up and You see that that reminds you of why You're about to go through that day Um funny thing I wanted to ask is that Um what's the Score what's the dynamic between you Guys you're married you're running a Company a lot of people say that you Shouldn't go into business with your Spouse but you guys have been doing this For eight years like what are the what Are the secrets what have you learned Yeah a couple of Tricks uh and it was uh Mainly because uh of Alex that she has
Set some boundaries because otherwise in My case I can just keep talking about Work yeah whatever because I'm Passionate about that but Um so firstly we use WhatsApp for Personal staff and we use slack for Business right and so sometimes I might Be on slack asking for something to be Done faster and or to raise the bar and In the meanwhile and what's stopping her Saying oh what do we have for dinner Tonight yeah but then the other rules She has said is that after a certain Time like call it 9 30 PM I cannot talk About work because our point is you need To treat me like you would treat any Other colleague and it's not that you Call them at 10 pm unless it's really Really urgent and I say fine but I can Still slacker yeah [Music] And I know it's me but I cannot talk About the topic Or um Sometimes we're having Zoom calls and we Are just in a room next to each other But we are both on Zoom for example The Shield opposed to me and we do a One-on-one at least once a week Sometimes also on Saturday but my trip Was tough Joy is the one-on-one and the Chipmunk stuff is in New York we are in Miami and so we do her one-on-one Remotely even if she's like in the other
Room yeah Um so I think if you need to Professionalize the working relationship You can't treat each other as oh Um you know we're just family and most Important for us because this is not a Family business you know we've been Together for longer than we've done the Company but this is not a family Business we have business partners we Have investors I'm an executive in the Company he's an executive in the company We can be five from our jobs we can be Replaced right and we need to earn our Spot even though we're Founders you need To earn your spot you need to grow you Need to be able to manage and so I think Professionalizing is like step number One and that has made things easier and So what that means also is that if you Have a discussion of professional Setting you can't bring it personal and Vice versa Um and the other big thing that we have Learned I think this applies to any Working relationship regardless of Whether you're related or married or not Is that you need to understand how you Are different in the approach that you Have to very key things and one of them For us is how do we solve problems or Gain Clarity Mateo and I are very Different in that sense and so he has I Think probably part of your uh lawyer
Trained brain like he has this amazing Capacity to focus and he can really Focus on one specific thing and subject For a very long time and keep for hours Thinking about it thinking about it Until he finds the solution and his Brain performs really well at that level For me it's very different my brain sort Of like has the more like maybe creative Side and so I get my best ideas when I'm Not purposefully trying to solve that Problem I sort of go outside of that World and then suddenly things just Click I'm a big dreamer for example Connecting to sleep I dream every night And my brain sort of putting together All of these things during my sleep and Then sometimes I wake up and I'm like Okay now I feel Clarity and so finding These things over the years have helped Us because then I when I tell him hey I Cannot talk about work anymore today It's Saturday give me my day he Understands that as long as I'm being Lazy right as a Founder you're always on But my brain needs it and then anybody Come back to you later and suddenly I Have the solution for what we're talking About right Um one thing I want to ask is uh any Books that you guys would recommend that Have changed um your thinking or Impacted your life or business in any Way there's two and actually gifted them
To everyone in my team Um that I always kind of go back to one Is shoe dog by Phil Knight and you know My team takes several marketing and Brand and building Aid sleep as that Iconic company is a really important Part of what we do day in and day out And I think Nike is a great example of a Company that has done that and the other One is the scorecake syrup itself you Focus on the fundamentals and like the Most basic inputs of how you're Structuring your business and how every Single person in your team is doing Their job you should be able to win the Championships that book is uh from all Of the the Frameworks built by Bill Walsh um and this he was this incredible Coach of the 49ers I was able to take a Team that was like struggling into Winning multiple championships There is a high output management which Is highly recommended for any manager it Was the former CEO of Intel it's really Like the Bible for for management uh There is if you're in another build from The former CEO of the nest there is the Almanac of Nevada Nevada who is also one Of our investors And if you already have a bit more Philosophical there is meditations from Marcus aurangis which is really cool to See how people were thinking 2000 years Ago and those that thinking still
Applies to us today amazing guys thank You so much this has been absolutely Wonderful um so great having you here Thank you for all the insights on all of The optimizing sleep diet nutrition Exercise all of those things definitely I'm going to take away the 6 PM social Event thing because this is no reason Not to try and trying to do some Interval training as well and yeah I've Got I've got my king size Aid sleep in a Box at home and I will install it in my New place like next week so I'll report Back and let you know how I guess thank You thanks so much for coming All right so that's it for this week's Episode of Deep dive thank you so much For watching or listening all the links And resources that we mentioned in the Podcast are going to be linked down in The video description or in the show Notes depending on where you're watching Or listening to this if you're listening To this on a podcast platform then do Please leave us a review on the iTunes Store it really helps other people Discover the podcast or if you're Watching this in full HD or 4k on YouTube then you can leave a comment Down below and ask any questions or any Insights or any thoughts about the Episode that would be awesome and if you Enjoyed this episode you might like to Check out this episode here as well
Which links in with some of the stuff That we talked about in the episode so Thanks for watching uh do hit the Subscribe button if you aren't already And I'll see you next time bye
