How Marxism is Disguised as Woke Morality | Dr. Yoram Hazony | #305

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Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Dr. Yoram Hazony discuss the major problems plaguing today’s youths, such as the resurgence of Marxism under the guise of woke morality, the creation of aimless social hierarchies that leave participants devoid of meaning, and the complete lack of respect for adverse thinking that has lead to the deterioration of our foundational principles.

Dr. Yoram Hazony is an Israeli author, philosopher, political theorist, and Bible scholar. In 1994, Dr. Hazony founded the Shalem Center in Jerusalem, which became Shalem College in 2013. Being the first liberal arts college in Israel, it attracted widespread attention, followed by much acclaim as many of the country’s renowned intellectuals joined its staff. Hazony has also served as director of the John Templeton Foundation’s project in Jewish Philosophical Theology, as well as a member of the Israel Council for Higher Education committee. Dr. Hazony has published many books, his 2018 work, The Virtue of Nationalism, being awarded Conservative Book of the Year in 2019. He also maintains a regularly published blog, Jerusalem Letters, that explores the topics of philosophy, politics, Judaism, Israel, and higher education. Other writings by Dr. Hazony have been published in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and American Affairs.

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Yoram Hazony’s website: www.YoramHazony.org

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— Chapters —

(0:00) Coming Up
(0:54) Intro
(1:51) Rediscovery
(3:00) Cultural revolution
(6:33) Stored cultural capital
(10:00) Sanity and marxism
(15:43) Meaning and service
(22:00) Hierarchy, tyranny, and the tribe
(31:43) Widespread misconceptions on Conservatism
(37:36) Mutation, genetic/hierarchical stabilization
(44:20) Constitutional Axioms, British common law
(50:50) Redefining the fundamentals
(57:23) Entropy and Iliad
(1:00:35) The Flood, myth across culture
(1:05:25) The call to responsibility, utopian schemes
(1:10:15) Parenting, shedding adolescence
(1:13:29) The case for faith,
(1:17:20) Abraham, the call to adventure
(1:19:55) To honor those around you
(1:26:00) Integral liberalism, the lack of filter
(1:29:45) Common respect, breaking down tribalism
(1:34:20) The act of judgment
(1:37:30) Why tilt Conservative?

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I mean take a look politically at you Know what it what’s happening in America What’s happening in other Democratic Countries where where the uh the Competing political parties the Competing tribes no longer honor one Another right all you need to do is to You know go back to the the rate Reagan Uh Reagan Mondale debates from the 80s And just look look at those videos of The way they treat one another the Difference between you know what that Kind of politics and the politics we Have today which consists you know of This constant constant drumbeat of Insult abuse slander dishonoring one Another look it’s just like a marriage If you want a divorce if you want a Civil war then just keep dishonoring the Other person just keep focusing on Everything that’s wrong with them and You’ll you’ll you’ll get your divorce You’ll get your Civil War [Music] Foreign [Music] Watching and listening on YouTube I have today with me Dr yorum hazoni We’re going to talk about His new book He’s written a number of Books we’re going to talk about his new Book conservatism rediscovery And uh I’m very much looking forward to That he’s quite a scholar of

Conservative thought political thought In general and so I hope to learn a lot Today well I have the opportunity to Sift through his knowledge Welcome yorums good to see you hello Jordan Good to see you So let’s talk about your book why a Rediscovery I think Most people at this point have figured Out that that we’re undergoing some kind Of cultural revolution and uh I I think I think this hit a high point uh two Years ago in 2020 when uh when when People started getting fired from from Prestigious academic positions and and Media positions for holding you know Regular liberal positions that people Have had had for decades and uh I I Wrote this book in order to try to uh to Make some order in this cultural Revolution uh these woke neo-marxists Are obviously not liberals and it seems That the the old liberalism doesn’t have The fight and the Firepower to be able To uh to to uh roll this back and the Question I think everybody needs to be Asking is you know what what kind of a Force would be strong enough to stop it Everybody talks about all the things That the left is doing wrong and and of Course that’s that makes sense but if We’re thinking about opposition into it The question is what what kind of force

Is going to be strong enough to stop it And I I think to discuss that you have To go into uh into conservatism how Would you characterize what’s happening On the left Do you think I mean what is what’s the Nature of this cultural revolution It’s after World War II I think both in America and and across Europe uh there There was a kind of a a consensus which Um I mean all the major part of Political parties all the major cultural Streams uh agreed on a kind of a a Liberal framework and you can call it an Enlightened liberal framework the basic Idea is that uh that what you need to Know about politics is that human beings Are by Nature free and equal that they Take on moral obligations and political Obligations on the basis of consent and That was assumed to be sufficient in Order to you know to to guide the Political world so there were there were Disagreements within liberalism Progressive liberalism and and and Libertarianism and Classical liberalism But the basic framework held for 60 or 70 years and now the I I think the most Important thing to understand is that That liberalism which you know in a lot Of ways it’s very well intentioned it’s Very very Noble Um but but it assumes that children when They’re being raised that they don’t

They don’t need any kind of traditional Guidance they don’t need any kind of uh Customary framework guard what people Call guard rails today that are Inherited and are are Consciously inculcated uh by parents by Churches by by schools the Assumption Was and and I I think for many many Parents still is for two generations the Assumption was you tell your kids when They’re growing up look whatever makes You feel good uh whatever fulfills you Whatever it is that that you know that Uh that gives you meaning in life that’s What you should do and the important Thing is to be happy that sounds really Nice but as you know as you know from From your work and your studies when you Raise kids like that a great many of Them uh simply reach a kind of a a dead End they whatever makes you feel good Well they don’t know what makes them Feel good and uh into that vacuum Steps steps in in a uh this woke Neo Marxist movement which has answers it Gives people answers and the the Um Uh the surprise is that you know all all Of these mainstream liberals thought That if you just told kids use your Reason think for yourselves figure it Out for yourselves we trust you that Everybody would sort of come to Something normal but it turns out that

That’s not true when you tell all the Young people for two generations just Think for yourselves you know whatever Looks good to you it turns out that a Great many of them are are much more Attracted to Marxism or and some of them Even to Fascism than than to uh the the The the mainstream liberalism so that Went on for two generations and now it’s Collapsed I mean basically 2020 was the The year that the hegemony of uh the Mainstream liberal ideas came to an end There’s still obviously lots of liberals Running around but in terms of the the Assumptions of the society right right Now we actually have this woke Neo-marxism seeking to impose a new Hegemony and they’re frightening close So it seems to me that you could make a Case that classic liberalism worked Because it was running on stored Cultural capital in some sense is that When the institutions that you’re Speaking about were more or less intact So that would be Church let’s say family Stay stable monogamous heterosexual Marriages and Civic Society Membership in clubs and that sort of Thing when all that was functioning then It principle it was possible to treat People like they were autonomous Reasonable individuals because you had Already laid the groundwork for

Something approximating a shared ethos But as that evaporated because people Became more atomistic and hedonistic Than the shared ethos started to Deteriorate and other idea sets became More attractive does that seem Approximately correct I I think that’s Exactly right I I would just just add The the loyalty to a to a national Framework to a nation so basically if if People are raised with loyalties to to Family to a a congregation to to a Community and then to a larger Nation Um then then they know something about Where they are you know that they can Criticize uh they can argue about you Know how are we going to organize these These loyalties how can we improve Things but exactly exactly as you said If they don’t grow up with those things If those things are are are no longer Clear because uh because the the Cultural capital as you say is running Down Um the inherent The Inheritance is Basically being spent and once that Inheritance is gone then then there are No limits there is no framework there’s No common sense I mean what we call Common Sense is is always the common Sense of a particular uh Nation or Community or family and once those Things have broken down there is no Common sense and people actually are

Willing to consider you know just about Any crazy Evil thing Big government continues to spend Borrowed money inflation continues to Swell dragging down our economy and the Stock market has entered bear territory So what’s your plan are your assets Diversified I’m Phillip Patrick precious Metal specialist for the Birch gold Group for nearly 20 years we’ve helped Americans diversify into gold and we can Help you too did you know you can own Physical gold and silver in a tax Sheltered account we can help you Transfer an IRA or 401K tied to stocks Into an IRA in Gold if you’re skeptical About the trajectory of the economy in The US dollar then text Jordan to 989898 Birch gold group will send you a free Info kit on securing your savings with Gold with thousands of satisfied Customers five star reviews and an A Plus rating with the Better Business Bureau we take Precious Metals seriously Text Jordan to 989898 For your free info kit So I’ve been I’ve been thinking a fair Bit about the potential contribution of Of I would say Clinical and counseling psychologists to This Mass because There was a tremendous emphasis probably

Throughout the whole hundred year course Of the development say of Clinical Psychology and clinical Psychiatry on Sanity as something in some real sense Internal to the individual and so Thank you can see that I would say in Its most Stellar Exemplars in the humanist psychologists Of the 1960s and kind of figures that That would occur in the 1960s that You were saying and capable of Psychological well-being if you were Well-constituted psychologically But I’ve been thinking more recently that That’s not a very useful model of Sanity Because it downplays The social embeddedness that Characterizes people who are Psychologically stable and therefore Capable of Happiness if you’re stable You’re not anxious you’re not Completely ridden with negative emotion That doesn’t necessarily mean you’re Happy but if you do a careful analysis Of what people mean when they say they Want to be happy what they really mean Is they don’t want to be miserable and Happiness is like the icing on the cake But they definitely don’t want to be Anxious and frustrated and disappointed And in pain and confused and aimless and All of that and

So it isn’t obvious to me at all that It’s possible to be Psychologically intact in isolation I Think the most potent proof of that is Even That even hardened criminals anti-social Types fine being in solitary confinement Almost intolerable and so if that’s the Case You might ask well what exactly is Social being doing for us and If you’re married You have someone who’s somewhat Different than you to keep you in check Constantly like married couples are Throwing back and forth information to Each other about how to regulate the Relationship and themselves non-stop That’s pretty much all of what Communication consists of and then If you have children or your parents Your siblings let’s say that immediate Family the same thing is happening is That people are monitoring one another And providing each other with feedback About how to behave and how to think and Then that’s nested inside a Civic Community and that’s nested inside a State or a province and then that’s Nested inside a country and Sanity seems To be something like and maybe all of That’s nested inside some religious Presuppositions It’s the harmony between all those

Levels that seems to be Essentially What constitutes sanity rather than Something that’s Formally internal like maybe your Internal structure reflects that External Harmony and that’s like in a Fractal manner in a holographic Manner And that’s what sanity constitutes and I Would say that the liberal emphasis on Say self-actualization and as the on the Atomist itself as the center of the World has Deluded itself into thinking that any of That’s possible without an intact Hierarchy of social structures Surrounding the individual now it seems To me to be the weakness the fundamental Weakness on the psychological front of Of even of classic liberalism I think That’s exactly right and I I think that You were already Speaking pretty much to this uh in in Your earlier work when you were telling You were telling young people look Um you need to find you need to find Your place within some kind of social Hierarchy and uh this is actually the The extension of your your earlier Argument I mean both both of us are Drawing on on durkheim’s Insight that uh Look if you want to know what is it that Leads people to to Suicide then uh it’s Anomian what is that right that’s the

The the lack of a directional sense a Set of guard rails which comes from Those nests and hierarchies that you’re That you are describing if the Individual now none of this means that That an individual can’t you know if he Or she is unhappy can’t look for a Different place in a different hierarchy But the point is that that wherever they End up if they’re going to be motivated And directed and feel like their life Has meaning and purpose and direction It’s going to be because they have found Their place in a hierarchy that works For them and and liberalism simply Doesn’t simply doesn’t uh touch on on This Central human need by the way the Marxists are pretty pretty much aware of This they do think in terms of Hierarchies of course their goal is to Destroy them but at least they can see Them whereas the the Liberals are always Thinking kind of in terms of flat land That you know by the time you’re 18 or 20 then you’re equal to everybody and It’s the assumption is that everything’s Level but but the truth is nothing is Level there are always hierarchies and People feel good when they found they Found the right place in in such a Hierarchy by the way that means that They have something to Aspire to move up In the hierarchy they’ve they know they Have some idea of where they’re going in

Life Yeah well you talked about you just Spoke of guard rails and Direction and Now it seems about right to me I mean When I worked as a clinician and I was Trying to understand what made for a Good life let’s say when I was dealing With people who were depressed because Well often they didn’t have the Necessary guardrails or Direction and That was part of the reason they were Depressed I mean depression is Complicated there’s many reasons for it But It does seem to me to be an Incontrovertible truth and I think that My audiences Have responded very well to this Proposition that almost all the meaning That you find in your life that isn’t Merely a consequence of a narrow end and Short-sighted Hedonism is found in The service you provide to the people Who are in your Social Networks And that would be first of all obviously Your intimate relationship and your Family and then in the hierarchical uh Nesting nested structures that that that Are outside of that if you’re fortunate Enough to have them and the guard rails Are that there are codes of behavior That are necessary to

To abide by That constitute Adhering to the principles of all those Social relationships and the direction Is Whatever the joint venture that you’re Embarking on with others is directed Towards and I don’t see that you do have Any Structure or purpose in your life in the Absence of those things I mean if you Strip someone of their let’s say Embeddedness within an educational Institution or within a job or a career You strip them of their family you strip Them of all their civic responsibility I suppose perhaps they have their Creative Endeavors if they happen to be Creative people but even then They have to be interacting with other People to communicate about their Creative Endeavors or to monetize them And without that there’s well there Really is nothing and we also know too That psych statistical studies of of Language usage have indicated pretty Clearly that Thoughts about yourself are Indistinguishable from negative emotion That’s how heavily tinged they are with Negative emotion as soon as you become Self-conscious as soon as you start Thinking about yourself you’re instantly Anxious and miserable they’re the same

Thing And so Okay and so then on the Marxist front Because we talked about the collapse of Liberalism the fact that liberalism in Some sense is an empty Concept in the Absence of these underlying practices And Customs let’s say where that they’re Actually embodied that you actually act Out they’re not conceptual precisely the Marxists I think have an advantage over The Liberals and maybe this is one of The things that accounts for the Attractiveness of Marxism to young People is that the marxists at least They have an attitude towards guard Rails which is destroy them but they Also provided direction right and the Direction is essentially a revolutionary Direction it it combines a critique of Of hierarchy concentrating on the idea That hierarchies are intrinsically Pathological but then it also provides Direction and group membership and so That’s pretty compelling in the absence Of any structure say Which at least in principle is what Would be offered by the classic liberals Right but notice that you know I mean This issue goes all the way back to Marx Notice that the uh that the theory is That that uh hierarchical structures and Uh uh competition between groups always Means that there’s going to be

Oppression and the goal is always to to Over overthrow the dominant hierarchy But notice that Marx doesn’t answer Marx Doesn’t answer the question of what’s Going to come after the revolution is it Incredibly vague about it and this Continues to this day which is that the The the the unspoken truth here is that These woke neo-marxists are Masters at Creating tight hierarchical structures That people can fit into that that I Mean that that’s that’s the reason that That that people get sucked into this Woke thing they sound so much like Robots and they’re they’re you know They’re constantly repeating you know Precisely the new new thing that they’re Supposed to be saying and the reason for This is because because the their their Own hierarchical structures that they’re Creating are are of the you know the the Tightest and most disciplined kinds so So I mean there is Um I think you can I think a lot of People sense this there’s a terrible Hypocrisy in in the whole in the whole Woke thing in that the claim is that They’re you know they’re they’re Bringing Social Justice by overthrowing Existing uh existing social structures Existing hierarchies but they themselves Are imposing precisely the same thing That they’re well worse no no they’re Opposing something worse I mean this is

Something that’s that’s very very Striking historically so So let’s take the Marxist position apart The first Oversimplification is that there is a Hierarchy Instead of a multiplicity of hierarchies Because in any reasonably functioning Modern society there are innumerable Hierarchies and part of the reason that We can live without being too crushed by Hierarchical difference is because as You said before you can move from one Hierarchy to another and that might be Something as straightforward as Changing jobs not that that’s Particularly easy but it’s not Impossible and so if you can’t find a Place in one economic structure Microstructure then you can find a place In another and I think one of the real Antidotes to rigid Uniform Monolithic hierarchy as a provision of Multiple games and I think modern Societies do a very good job of that and And then And so the idea that there’s one Hierarchy although you could rank order People by wealth I suppose but the idea That there’s one hierarchy is Preposterous except under Marxist rule In which case everything does tend to Collapse into a single hierarchy that’s

Absolutely monolithic and totalitarian Beyond belief and that just happened Time and time again so you have to Presume that there’s some fundamental Flaw in the Marxist formulation and Maybe the flaw is something like look You have to accept Um a moderate amount of hierarchical Structuring and you have to hope it Doesn’t get too lopsided so that only a Few have everything and everyone else Has nothing that’s a pathological Situation although it’s not only a Consequence of say Western economic Structures it’s that is a human Universal that proclivity or or natural Universal that power law distribution Problem now if you criticize hierarchy To such a degree that you want to Destroy all of it then all that you do Is instantly produce something Approximating the most tyrannical Hierarchy you can possibly imagine Because you destroy the differentiated Structures exactly what happened in the Soviet Union in China you destroy all The intermediary Distributed multiplicities Structures and you replace that with Tyrant and peasants That’s true but You know let me push back just just a Little bit because I think I think that A healthy Society

Is one that certainly has a a Competition of uh you know multiple Tribes maybe different religions I think These things are probably more important To people people’s identities are are More tied to uh to Regional ethnic Religious groups than they are to you Know to what what job they have and so What I what I what I meant about you Know when I said that people can change Is that it look it’s always possible if You don’t if if you don’t like your Nation to move to a different Nation if You don’t like your religion you can Convert to a different religion but the The bottom line is that uh thing that Big structures macro structures like Um like the the uh the hierarchy that Constitutes uh constitutes a Nation Those are those are the things that are Missing I think from from the liberal Picture of course a healthy nation and And I would hear I would I would insert The word conservative is that the the Difference between uh between a uh a Marxist view of uh the hierarchy the Hierarchical power structures within Nation and a conservative view is that a Conservative says Um look there’s always going to be Groups that are more powerful than Others uh that there’s no such thing as No hierarchy there’s always going to be A competition among groups and some

Groups are going to be more powerful Than others you know like like like like The the uh uh the Anglo-Saxon Protestant Uh uh grouping within the United States For most of its history and so so They’re going to be groups that are more Powerful than others but that doesn’t Mean that the most powerful groups have To oppress the other groups they’re in a In a conservative Society there there’s A an ongoing negotiation Among the different groups you know There’s a jostling in a competition just Like in in just like in family life you Know there’s a constant bickering and Jostling among children for you know for Position and even between a husband and Wife the reason husbands and wives Bicker is you know the reason they Squabble is is because there’s a Constant you know uh um trying to find a Place where where you feel like you’re Being properly honored you feel like You’re being properly respected and in a Uh in a traditional Um conservative Society what’s going on Is that you you inherit certain ways of Structuring things and and then you can You can adjust them you can try to Correct them but the goal of the Conservative Society is to have a Distribution of honors a distribution of Of uh justices you know of of of what People get and where they get placed

Within the society and that distribution The conservative claim it doesn’t always Have to be evil like the marxists say it Doesn’t always have to be oppressive you Can have a situation in which the more Powerful groups understand that they Have a responsibility to the weaker Groups and you can argue about exactly What that is but a a mutual a mutually Beneficial conservative Society is one In which the the uh different groups get Things out of out of the collaboration Out of the the mutual loyalty it’s not Just the strongest things in the we get Crushed but everybody gets things and I Think I think that a lot of what Conservatives are reacting to when they You know when they see what the marxists Are trying to to build is that you know You’re trying to grab everything for Your group whereas a traditional Conservative society says says know the The the just balance of honors among the Different groups that’s what makes People feel good that’s what makes People loyal to the system otherwise There is no loyalty to the system There’s just depression yeah well the Marxists also have the advantage that I would say of two they have a two-fold Advantage first of all they can appeal To envy and they’re unbelievably good at That I mean I think the fundamental Motivating force of Marxism is is envy

And now it’d be it’d be a close race Between that and desire for untrammeled Power but we can certainly start with Envy and it’s very easy for people to be Envious of anyone who has more of Anything than they do and one of the Things that I’ve already been struck by On the left is the constant Presupposition that if someone has more Than me they got it because they’re Using power in oppressive way it’s Always the cutoff between the oppressor And the oppressed is whatever status I Happen to have as a left-wing Intellectual Because I got what I have honestly and Through hard work and diligence but Anybody who has more than me obviously Took it from the people who are lesser Than them And so that’s definitely an appeal to Envy but there’s something underneath That I think that is more powerful which Is that and this is a criticism that Conservatism is susceptible to is that Hierarchies do tend to degenerate in the Direction of arbitrary power when they Degenerate and every hierarchy is Degenerate to some degree right because There’s a bit of corruption in Everything and so then the marxists can Point to the corruption especially if They’re appealing to young people and They can say well look at that person in

That position of authority and the awful Things they did that were oppressive and Impro improper obviously everyone who Holds any position of authority is Corrupt in some fundamental way and then Obviously the whole system is corrupt And That’s given that that critique of Corruption has warrant in some sense It’s not easy to differentiate and to Say no look guys you got to think this Through is that human institutions Aren’t perfect and you have to be awake All the time to make sure they don’t Degenerate entirely but that doesn’t Mean that they’re fundamentally corrupt You know which is the claim for example That America was predicated on the uh on On a positive view towards slavery it’s Like well obviously when America was Founded Slavery was thriving And so there was this pro-slavery ethos That was part and parcel of the American Project at that point but the Fundamental Drive of the system and all Of the Traditions upon which it was Founded was that all men are created Equal men and women are created equal Before God and that was the Principle that eventually won out and It’s hard to teach young people I think To separate the wheat from the chaff When it’s so easy just to throw

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Supporting veterans and America’s coffee Right agreed Um look the the reason that I Um that I bothered with the historical Chapters in in the conservatism book is Is because I I think there’s a a Um A widespread misunderstanding about About conservative thinkers about Fortescue and Selden and Burke and and And for that matter you know Washington And Adams and Hamilton there’s kind of This assumption that if you’re Conservative then you you just think That whatever exists is fine and it Doesn’t need to be repaired when you Actually read these sophisticated Conservative thinkers what you find is That none of them think this the the the Actual view is uh something much more Like what you were describing that There’s corruption in everything but More than that Um every good system decays every good System runs down this is a an integral Part you just you just see this over and Over again in anglo-american Conservative uh uh thinkers is every System runs down every system decays and That’s just that’s just the way human Societies are so the the principal job Of the conservative is not to to hold on Tight to whatever exists it’s to look For uh restoration it’s to identify what

Has become corrupt and decayed and to uh Look for a model either uh earlier in History or sometimes even just you know Uh looking at the neighbors the way that You know the pole that during the Polish Revolution they they they they they Looked to to the British constitution For for for a model and so the word Restoration it’s a lot like the word Repentance it’s a restoration is kind of A is kind of a national political Repentance where where you look at Something and you say look this is Decayed we’ve gone off course Um or or there is an inherited evil that You know can no longer be tolerated and We have to fix it and the conservative’s Job is to find a way to uh to to make That repair what while strengthening the Entire system as a whole so I mean the The example of slavery I think is is uh It’s on always on a lot of people’s Minds and I think for good reasons but Important to notice that that uh that The uh that Britain succeeded in Eliminating slavery on the basis of the Common law in the 1770s with without a Revolution without a civil war Um and the uh what what what what Happened is that uh Lord Mansfield Um looked at the you know the Integration of the Mercantile law over The previous Century into the common law And in a lot of ways that was very good

That’s what made it made it possible for You know for for Britain in in a lot of Ways to become a a a a a modern economy But Um the the the idea that that uh human Beings could be bought and sold as Slaves was imported into the common law By the Mercantile law less than you know At the end of the 1600s and at a certain Point the uh the uh the the jurists the The judges in Britain looked at this and Said we what’s happening is we are Corrupting ourselves we’re corrupting Our tradition by allowing this Institution of Slavery to to to be Brought into our country and they Limited it on the basis of of British Tradition the the English tradition they Said English common law does not does Not uphold slavery a person who is Enslaved in in England is always Enslaved unfairly now the interesting Thing is that the Americans uh an Important part of the Federalist party’s Platform during the American Revolution Was the um uh the the uh bringing the English common law uh in as as the the Uh the law of the new national federal Government Uh Jefferson opposed it Madison opposed It but the Federalist Party the Conservatives they thought that they Needed this they they needed this common Law inheritance and and America in fact

Does does still have that common law Inheritance until this day now Why is it that Um that if the English could get rid of Slavery you know without this abstract Declaration that you know that that on All men are created equal why is it that The Americans couldn’t do it and I I I Think part of this is an optical Illusion I think I I think that the Americans could have done it but Um the the uh the strength of liberalism In in America’s founding and and you Know going forward uh comes from the Fact that while uh uh Washington and his Party were genuine conservatives the the American Constitution of 1787 is Basically it in in many respects the Restoration of the of the British Constitution that’s what Washington and His party stood for Jefferson and his Party Tom Payne Um the these really were Enlightenment Liberal radicals and and uh Jefferson is Famous for saying things like uh Repeatedly uh that one generation is a Foreign country to to to the preceding Generations meaning that that each Generation owes nothing to the past each Generation receives nothing from the Past that that can’t be simply Overthrown and revised and I I think This brings us to you know to the heart Of uh of what we’re facing today you

Know I I just read a very I just read a Very interesting scientific paper that’s Oddly relevant to this it’s really Revolutionary I think it was published In nature And uh It showed no there’s this idea that’s Common currency among evolutionary Biologists that mutations are entirely Random And this turns out not to exactly be True And so there’s a hierarchy of genetic Stability And the older the genes are That code for the properties of a given Organism The more likely those genes are to be Restored to their original condition if A mutation does occur by DNA repair Mechanisms Right so so the reason I think this is So relevant is you imagine that our The presumptions that make up our Society and stabilize them have a Hierarchical structure and some of them Are old and deep and one of the oldest And deepest would be the idea that men And women alike are made in the image of God And so that’s a very fundamental Proposition And then you might say that well the More fundamental of proposition is the

More other propositions depend on it and Then you might say It’s those most fundamental propositions That have to be transmitted from Generation to generation the more Peripheral propositions which are newer And they would be akin to newer genetic Variations In a given organism the more they’re Free to vary because not so many things Depend on them and they should vary Because they their fundamental nature is Still up in the air in some sense but There’s a hierarchy of presumptions and The deeper the presumption the less the Less it should be amenable to change I think that can be worked out on the Conservative side I I think so I I mean I I I think you’re Describing exactly what I’m describing Just from another field yeah by the way Um there’s this uh really fascinating Passage in in in Hayek in Friedrich Hayek Um who you know that a great Economist And and liberal thinker from the middle Of middle of the last century Um he he argues that there’s a uh that The emergence of the picture of science As an evolutionary process by trial and Error is the is the transference of the Old common law idea of the law as Evolutionary the Constitution as Evolutionary the transfer of that was

Completely natural you know for for uh For English and Scottish thinkers who Who knew that that the law was Supposedly evolved this way to begin Thinking in the same way about science As trial and error and and you know that That that you know that that obviously Could easily have inspired uh Darwin as Well well then we we could think about English common law the same way so English common law In tell me if I’ve got any of the Details of this wrong but basically Under the English system the presumption Is human beings have all the rights There are intrinsically and then when People come together and have a dispute The dispute has to be adjudicated and Once it’s adjudicated that becomes a Common law principle and then those Principles are supposed to be bound by Precedent and so then the Presuppositions in English common law That have the most precedent are the Most fundamental and so it’s an Incrementally transforming structure but It but it’s also hierarchically Structured and it differs from let’s say The French civil code it certainly Differs from systems of thought like Marxism which are all rational creations And imposed from the top down and so English common law did have this Bottom-up nature which gives it well I

Would say in some sense a preeminent Status among legal codes around the World it’s it’s a remarkable it’s a Remarkable body of work Yep it is let me just add I I think your Description is apt let me just just add A couple of of points to that uh one of Them is that the the Um the common law is uh is a development Uh coming down the centuries of biblical Law if you go you know go back to the The earliest formulations of legal codes In in Britain Um a lot of it is taken literally Explicitly directly from uh from from Law codes in Hebrew scripture and a Second Point that’s that’s important is That Um is that what you’re describing the uh The the jostling among individuals which Then create cases that’s at precedence Um that also happens at the Constitutional level not not only at the At the at the level of individuals uh uh Competing with one another Um you know for for uh for rights but Also if you look at Um you look at Magna Carta and the Petition of Right and the English Bill Of Rights and then after that the the American Bill of Rights if if you look At that as a uh as an ongoing Um uh jostling between between the Executive which you know originally the

King and the legislature which was Originally the Nobles and the uh what You see is exactly this kind of uh trial And error to find the right balance Which goes on for literally goes on for For a thousand years and the the Constitution that Um that the Americans in 1787 took upon Themselves if you if you compare it to Uh the earlier English Petition of Right And Bill of Rights you’ll see that Virtually all of the rights That that appear in the American Constitution are actually things that Were already worked out right right over Centuries in in in this trial and error Effort to find the right balance in England So so this means Jefferson is wrong Because he didn’t in in the manner that You described Um that each successive generation is a Foreign territory compared to the Previous because he’s not taking into Account The hierarchical nature hierarchical Nature of fundamental social Presuppositions And so he might be correct On The Fringe In the periphery but at the core he’s Wrong and the case that you’re making is That while you have the American Constitutional axioms let’s say Including

Expanded to include the Bill of Rights But that’s grounded in English common Law that’s a consequence of centuries of Trial and error It’s and it’s it’s not you know it’s not It’s trial and error in a very Particular way because Imagine that you and I have a dispute And we uh 300 years ago and we go in Front of an English Court the court has To rule in relationship to the dispute In a manner that’s commensurate with all Previous rulings of that broad type And then the rulings have to be Consistent enough with grounded human Intuitions of what constitutes a just Settlement so that when the settlement Is handed down the parties involved Actually find it acceptable enough not To degenerate into murder That’s super well super well said I I Think that’s exactly exactly the point And if you if you now want to ask Um let’s say that we we go with Jefferson for a moment and we say Um actually you know using reason like We can we we can just come up with what What the right answer is in in in the 1700s we don’t we don’t need the you Know 800 years of of trial and error Before that if you go with Jefferson Where you end up is with a view that Says look I exercised reason I don’t Need I I don’t need tradition because I

Can exercise reason I don’t need an Inheritance of of ideas and principles And and precedence because I can just Use reason if you go in that direction What happens is that even though your Intentions are liberal and not Marxist Your your intention is just to allow People to be free of previous Generations that’s all to think for Themselves if you do that then what Whatever what you will come up with is Something that it it it it it it runs Down it actively aggressively runs down The the inheritance of Common Sense and Precedence and intuitions that people Have have gotten well What is this logic what is this this Reason that the Liberals are stressing Precisely I mean if you if you Investigate that from a psychological Perspective I mean you could think about It as the application of pure logic but That’s foolish because people just Aren’t that logical and very few people Are trained to think logically and any Case and then with regards to reason Itself unless you’re a radical Empiricist and you believe that the Pathway forward and the guard rails are Self-evident as a consequence of Exposure to the facts which is naive Beyond belief then your reason is an Empty concept because I mean if we’re Reasoning with language let’s say

Which which would be the most reasonable Way of reasoning because you can Communicate with other people that way Every single bloody word you use was Crafted by other people every phrase has A history every sentence is a fragment Of a philosophical tradition and then Every profound idea is very unlikely to Be original and so the very tools of Reason itself are established by not Only by tradition but by a an Unbelievably profound hierarchical Consensus because you and I couldn’t Even speak unless almost everything we Said to each other was comprehensible Because of our shared set of assumptions Again we can play on the fringes right I Mean as long as we’re 99 in agreement we Can talk about the one percent where we Differ and we can nibble away at the Edges but if we were radically different In our orientation and our individual Reason we couldn’t even talk Right By the way this point is um already made Explicitly by uh by Selden in uh John Selden the the the great common lawyer And constitutional scholar Um in in in the early 1600s that that Every single word that we use is Something that was crafted by previous Generations and that’s the basis uh for For our capacity to to to be able to Live together now the to go back to your

Uh uh a question that you you started With if You have a society that has a common Inheritance okay and I’m not saying that Everybody has to agree on everything but There is exactly as you said there’s a An inheritance in which 90 or 95 or 98 Of of of of what we think has been Inherited and we agree on it and then we Argue you know as you say on the fringes That’s a that is a very good description Of a successful cohesive uh uh polity in Which their competing parties in in Which there are you know you can have Them Democratic votes you can have Transitions from the rule of one party To another but all of this depends on a A mutual recognition among the different Parties that they’re part of one Inheritance and that they’re willing to Honor one another because even though They disagree they may hate each other But but they understand that that They’re part of One structure as you said one one Inherited logic and what we’ve done Today is to say no we don’t need any of That yeah we don’t need any of that it Doesn’t it doesn’t matter how much of it You you uproot and throw out because we Trust the the new human reason that the Revolutionaries are going to come up With to be something that better than What we inherited well I think I think

You really see this I really believe That you see the most egregious example Of this In our Willingness to redefine the meaning of Man and woman Because I my psychological Studies have led me To the presumption that There might not be any more fundamental Perceptual category than Man and woman then male and female And there’s the direct perception of That on the biological front which is a Precondition for successful reproduction We should point out in case it has to be Pointed out and then there are symbolic Echoes of masculine and feminine that Pervade almost everything we Conceptualize so you see that echoed for Example in the Taoist conception of Reality as yin and yang which is a Masculine and feminine dichotomy There’s this bipolarity of cognition That has as its fundamental basis the Distinction between the Sexes and you Know when when Canada moved in 2016 to Force The Reconstruction of pronouns onto uh Unsuspecting population in the name of Compassionate narcissism I thought well Because this is such a fundamental Cognitive category If we introduce entropy into it if we

Introduce disorder then we’re going to Destabilize those who are already quite Disordered and the most likely to be Destabilized in that manner would be Adolescent girls because that there’s Historical precedent for that And so this idiot insistence that all Conceptions are up for grabs belies the Fact that there’s a hierarchy of Perception In in relationship to the different Degrees of depths of different Perceptions and it replaces hierarchical Order not with the freedom that’s Promised by the marxists and the Liberals but with absolute bloody Intolerable chaos And when we I do believe that we’re in a Tower of Babel situation in a real sense Is that we become intellectually Pretentious beyond belief we’re building Scaffolds that are in principle designed To replace God and now we’ve reached uh Impasse where we no longer speak the Same language we can’t even decide what Constitutes a man and what constitutes a Woman and if you can’t agree on that Then I don’t think there’s anything that You can agree on And and so if you ask you know What does the individual Man or woman today facing uh the the This this the the uh um this permanent Cultural revolution which is uprooting

The most fundamental things that have Been inherited the most fundamental Concepts that we we use to understand Reality are being smashed so where do They turn and here I you know I I Understand that this could be Controversial for all sorts of people But I I I I think the bottom line is That a that if you see the Revolution Coming you understand it’s going to Destroy everything you understand There’s there’s going to literally be Nothing that is not uprooted If you see this what’s the force that That could stop it well the force that Could stop it is is fundamentally Um young men and young women young Families older older men and older women Find going to to to to that institution Which continues to hand down Traditions Intact which is in our society is almost Only at this point uh the church the the Orthodox Churches I Orthodox I’m I’m Theological traditionally whether They’re right whether they’re Catholic Or Protestant or or Orthodox doctrinally Uh or or the synagogue or some other Traditional community in which a life of Conservation and transmission is Actually taking place it it you know it It begins with Um young people saying look I need to be Part of I need to be part of a community But the next step is to say it can’t

Just be you know any arbitrary Community It can’t be you know like like uh a Bunch of 18 year olds uh in a dorm room We’re going to set up a community Because because they’re not they’re not Actually that’s a gang not a Conservative Right they’re not they’re not engaged in Conserving and transmitting anything all Right and so the only way that you can Plug yourself into uh this the the the Chain of conservation and transmission Which has been lost is to find older People to find older people who’ve seen It done I mean you’re not you’re not Going to be able to keep a marriage Together if you don’t have actual living Models of older people who have Succeeded in keeping a marriage together So you can see what it’s like so that You can you can pick it up from them and The same thing is true for for Everything else If you want to save yourself right I Mean I I think this is true nationally Also but at the moment if you as an Individual you want to save yourself now I’m not I’m not talking about the Christian question about like your Eternal salvation I I I’m I’m Jewish I’m Talking about you want to save yourself In this life in this world all right and Then what you’re going to have to do is You’re going to have to I I know this is

Difficult but you’re going to have to go To older people who have a functioning Congregation and say look I’m coming Here to learn I’m not coming here to Judge you I’m not coming here to you Know to preach the things I believe I’m Coming here to learn how a life of Conservation and transmission used to Work I I want to learn that to see Whether I can be part of it right that Is a very big change the best way to Fight the onco oncoming Revolution is as You say the on coming chaos is with Order and that but but you can’t create That order yourself you you have to be a Part of some existing order and luckily It still exists so in relationship to Your comments earlier about the Conservatives thinkers who I think we Should also go through by the way Making the case that things did fall Apart of their own accord there’s a A thinker Virginia eliada great Historian of religions who tracked the Commonalities among flood myths across Very many different cultures and came up With a formula for Why God or the gods Would become angry enough to Destroy everything in a in a in a Chaotic Catastrophe And he said well the first issue is that Things deteriorate of their own accord And that’s just an observation about the

Effect of entropy I would say is that Things Fall Apart if you just leave them Sit they’ll fall apart by themselves Because things Decay and then eliad also Said that A very common theme was that that Process of entropic Decay was sped Along By the sins of men And what he meant by that was the Proclivity for people to be willfully Blind And so imagine that there are small Things going wrong in your marriage your Wife becomes less attentive or you do Your attention starts to be attracted by Other people and you just let it slide You know that something’s up but you Don’t do the attentive work necessary to Do the repairs when the time is Appropriate Well then You speed the process of decay And so one of the implications of this Was that The central organizing principle of the Psyche and this might be the principle To which religious systems To some degree Put forward as the highest possible good Is something like constant attention to That process of Decay and communication About it to stem off the ravages of time You could think about that as an Organizing principle of the psyche a

Necessary organizing principle of the Psyche so the god Horus for example in The ancient Egyptian Pantheon Was the All-Seeing Eye That paid attention and who could see Corruption when it emerged and the Mesopotamian God Marduk was had eyes all The way around his head and spoke magic Words And so that seemed to be something like A core organizing principle and you Talked about these These Cardinal canonical conservative Thinkers Um and their willingness to make the Presumption that things did go wrong and Needed to be fixed maybe we could go Through them a little bit if you don’t Mind Fortescue hooker Selden and Burke and Well you know before before we launch Into them let me let me just say Something about um about the the Biblical uh flood myth and it’s uh uh Flood story I should say and its Relationship uh to the conversation that We’re that we’re having the Um Eliada’s uh mapping is helpful but there Is a big difference between uh between The Mesopotamian flood myth uh where you Have basically the gods get angry Because human beings are annoying human Beings are bothering them they’re

They’re Troublesome right when when that Story in that story in in you know in in The hands of uh of of Moses and the Israelite prophets that Story Becomes one of Um of God’s intention of creating you Know a an edenic World a a perfect world Where where human beings and animals Um are are all eating grasses and Vegetables and no you know no creature Hurts another creature and the what you See in the biblical account is that uh That the world is in has this intrinsic The the the chaotic Waters that God’s God’s wind or God’s spirit is Fashions The world out of those chaotic Waters Never you know they never fully go away They’re all always constantly about to Happen and and that affects uh human Nature in that human beings are Incapable of living in this perfect World that you know that God imagined uh In in in Eden the flood story actually Um has almost the you know the the Opposite meaning because what what God Discovers from the flood is that he Thought that he was going to give Noah And and know his children a you know a Chance to create the perfect world the Moment that that the flood is over and Noah starts getting drunk there’s sexual Impropriety there’s also the you know There’s all sorts of awful things that

Immediately happen to Noah who was Supposed to be the best of you know the Best of of human beings And that creates a a religious framework In which God says all right I can’t Perfect the world I have no way of Perfecting the world it’s not within my Power to do that which is Not exactly the way that it’s often Presented but that’s what it says in the Text is that God doesn’t have the power To create a perfect world and he needs Human beings to take up a a role as his You know his vice Regents as his uh uh Associates and assistants in in trying To fix in trying to fix the world and That structure notice that it’s a Hierarchical structure it’s it’s it’s Not a metaphor of an all-powerful God That we should just obey it’s a Different metaphor it’s a metaphor of a A God who actually needs our help he Could destroy the whole world but he Can’t fix it without our help that’s the Fundamental structure that makes Judaism And later Christianity different from The preceding religions is that there is A role for man within the hierarchy of The cosmos God needs us and the the Covenant is about us stepping forward And shoulder shouldering that Responsibility And an economy as volatile as this one It’s important to have control when

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Another thing that I’ve seen on my tours Is that The call to responsibility has become Somewhat of a Clarion call and you know You can see the marxists and the Environment and the environmental types As well Capitalizing on the attractiveness of Responsibility and Destiny to some Degree by offering these utopian schemes As a As a sort of Messianic alternative to Adam the enemy of liberalism let’s let’s Put it that way the conservative Approach seems to me to be something More like Um What would you call it the pursuit of Responsibility in Humble micro domains At least to begin with right so that To say it yourself right you should try To set your family relationships right And maybe to establish a family and Having established a certain degree of Harmony and functionality in your family Then maybe you could extend out a few Tentacles into the surrounding Civic Community and you could build from the Bottom up you could build a stable life And a stable social life and then a Stable political life let’s say from the Bottom up as a and it one of the things That I’ve been heartened by is the fact That if you lay out those arguments to

Young people you say look you need to be Embedded in a social surround and you Need to take responsibility for it the Reason you need that is because that’s Where you’re going to find the purpose Of your life that sounds to me like an Echo of this biblical insistence that There actually is something for human Beings to do as long as they don’t bite Off more than they can chew and get all Prideful about it you you said maybe Maybe start a family so you know I this Might be controversial with some of some Some of your viewers but in in in the Jewish version of the biblical tradition In the Jewish tradition The the starting a family is an Obligation that everyone who can do it Must do it right and if if if you if you If you think about that in in terms of The responsibility issue Young uh Orthodox Jews are raised to Believe that that if that if you don’t Take on this responsibility if if you You as a young man if you don’t you Don’t make it your business to to to Find a wife and to have children and to Uh to create a to to do what it takes to To create a stable structure You’re going to be for your entire life Unable to understand what it actually Takes in order to create uh to create Human order I mean the the the the the The the the you know the the various

People have noticed that the European That that many of the European leaders Uh are are unmarried and don’t have Children Um and the uh the the The situation in which Um Young people don’t learn how to they They don’t learn how to govern they Don’t learn how to uh to be a king and a Queen in their own homes they don’t know How to govern a family they don’t know How to how to hold it together uh Despite the you know the incredible pain And difficulties that that that that Often takes place uh between men and Women and and uh and children aren’t you Know children are you know they’re Sometimes fun but they’re sometimes Incredibly difficult incredibly painful To raise this this whole concept that Every every young man and woman who can Do it Must take the responsibility to bring Life into the world to create the world In you to try to build up on the basis Of what’s been inherited to try to make It better than what it was in in Previous generations that that view I I Think in in many ways that’s like the The Bedrock Um Jewish and Christian view which says You know we’re not slave we’re not Slaves to the gods we’re we’re Partners

In creating this world but that that Means we have an obligation to do the Act of creation and the the most Fundamental Act of Creation is creating A family once you’ve done that then you Know you you were hinting to this that Then I think you can also learn to Create congregations to uphold uh Nations all of that flows from the first Step of very young people taking Responsibility for creating you know Basically their own little world in a Family while there is no more profound Responsibility than that and so it’s an Initiation into profound responsibility I mean one of the things that happens to A parent That and I think it’s very difficult for This to happen if you don’t become a Parent is that once you’re a parent There is definitely someone In your life who’s more important than You are Right so your your orientation to the World well I would say it matures Properly and it matures under the force Of moral obligation fundamentally you Have this person now who’s For better worse almost entirely Dependent on your not so Tender Mercies You and your wife and whose subject to All of your Trials and tribulations and inadequacies And

If you have any sense at all that wakes You up as much as anything will and Without that I think it’s very difficult To Shed the Constraints of hedonistic adolescence That’s not good for me just you know It’s not good for people if you just go So go ahead Yeah no I I I think that’s exactly true I think I I as you said you you can’t You can’t in a lot of ways you can’t Actually mature uh until you’ve created And are the the government the uh of a Household and the alternative that that Uh that sort of mainstream liberalism Gives us this uh that that this view That you know when when you reach 18 or 20 years old you’re a your rational Individual and you know now you can do Whatever you want you can and usually Doing whatever you want we can see in Young people that doing whatever you Want means that they get too scared to Get married they get too scared to have Children they the the the even I’m Talking about something that even Affects even affects Orthodox religious Communities you can see it very very Clearly that that the um uh That they look at at these Responsibilities as a kind of uh with With terrible fear as though it’s like a Like an enslavement something something

They need they need to spend another Five years and another ten years and Another five years get more degrees Right you know they need to keep Preparing in order to be ready to do it And That that’s the the opposite of the Traditional view that says that says Take the responsibility and and then Live up to it you’ll grow by living up To it you’ll become a complete person as The rabbis say you complete Yourself by Entering and taking the responsibility Of marriage and children and the the Alternative of is is Adolescence that’s extended forever what You think that when you’re that when You’re 35 years old and uh and and now You’re gonna start looking to get Married it’s going to be easier to get Married you you’ll you’ll actually be More capable of it than you were when You were 23 I I don’t I don’t think That’s true at all I I think what you Learned during those extra 10 or 15 Years of adolescence is is to to just Care for yourself instead of to learn How to create something to learn Something that idea also highlights in Some sense both the Practical necessity And the inevitability of Faith or or the lack thereof I mean many Things in your life You have to throw yourself into without

First knowing that you can do it and I I Don’t mean to do that in an impulsive And foolish manner like heedless of all Risks I mean that When you get married You don’t know if it’s going to work and In some sense that’s even a foolish Question because the issue is that when You decide to get married It’s the first and foremost decision Among 50 000 decisions that are going to Determine whether or not you can stay Married And you can boil that down to a question Like did I marry the right person and The answer to that is always no and they Didn’t marry the right person either and Because neither of you are the right Person in your current unbelievably Flawed condition And so but you throw yourself into it Thinking that having faith that you can Manage it and also having faith that the Alternative that no matter how dismal The reality the alternative is likely to Be far worse and I would say the same Thing is true on the child rearing front Which is As you pointed out it’s difficult it Isn’t obvious that you’re prepared or That extra preparation is really going To help you But What’s the alternative to the difficulty

One of the things I love about the story Of Abraham one of the things I think That makes it such a profound story is That Abraham is really characterized by quite The protracted adolescence according to The beginning of the story he’s quite Old when God finally convinces him to Get the hell out of his tent and to get Out there in the world and God in that Story is definitely manifested manifests Himself as the Call to Adventure Even to the pathologically Underdeveloped The Call to Adventure and Of course Abraham just steps into any Number of catastrophes as soon as he Leaves the confines of his tantanas and His father’s home but the story is a Triumph in its totality because despite The fact that he encounters tyranny and The likely loss of his wife at the hands Of People who are essentially tyrants and Starvation and War and all of the Catastrophes of life he has a great Adventure and that’s the adventure as Far as I can tell it’s something like The adventure of Truth and dedication And responsibility and that’s very Seldom marketed you know by Conservatives to young people as an Adventure Right and you said their default Position is often to regard these

Strictures of community as What would you call it impediments and Impositions on their hedonic freedom but There’s very little of value in that Hedonic freedom and all of the adventure In life as far as I can tell is to be Found weirdly enough in truth and Responsibility yep I I I I I completely Agree you you have Um uh You have God telling Abraham Look I I I I’m I’m gonna give you an Opportunity uh to become a great nation To uh become a a a great tradition to Become to become a a teacher of all the Peoples in the world but you know that’s The biggest adventure that you know that The prophets could imagine was setting Out to become a teacher to the entire World and to and to create a great Nation that would influence the whole World and and and and and and and and Would be in Covenant with God they the Prophets can’t imagine a larger scale Adventure than that and yet the whole Thing Pivots around You take a wife you have to have a child You have to raise that child that that Involves hardship that involves Difficulty and you know there’s all of These descriptions of Abraham’s Adventures and and you know it it takes Many generations until you can see the

Consequences of what of of of you know The full consequences of what he did But the first step is taking Responsibility as you say and now we Have to ask we have to I mean now we’re Talking about you know tens of millions Of young people and not so young people Who are beginning to realize that you Know that that a career meaning you know Like Your place within the corporate economy You’re you know which cubicle getting to That corner office that that’s nowhere Near the adventure of Cre creating a family which is creating A little nation which then has the Opportunity to grow if you do it right I Mean really these two things are Basically Um battling with one another uh which of Them is more important and the the the The answer will you know you can have Both sometimes it’s true but but it’s It’s terribly misleading it’s terribly Misleading because because that cubicle In which you know you sit in front of That computer computer screen and try to You know move yourself up in the in in In the the corporate game that that’s Not a life of conservation and Transmission that’s not a life of Responsibility that you know that It for most people it’s almost nothing Actually and and and so

What we really need to be telling people Is Um is look enough enough with the fear Enough with the fear cut come come join A a religious community a congregation In which people did get married when They were young and they did have Children and and and and and come see What it’s like but by the way the uh the Uh the the Commandment of of uh uh being Fruitful and having children is is only One part of your place in the hierarchy The another part of your place in the Hierarchy is the commandment to honor Honor your parents and and that also is Something that young people find Incredibly difficult whenever I speak in Front of young audiences the moment that I mention the moment that I mention you Know honoring your father and your Mother honoring your teachers the Immediately somebody says well you know Only if they deserve to be honored right I mean you’re not talking about honoring Them you know if if they’re terrible and Of course that loophole basically allows You know everything single individual Young man and woman in the audience to Say well you know my parents are you Know I judge my parents they’re not you Know they’re not not worthy of being Honored that it it begins by going away To college and you don’t need to talk to Them anymore and it ends by putting your

Parents in an old age home uh and paying Somebody else to take care of them in Old age again you know just simply Dumping responsibility on somebody else Paying somebody else to take the Responsibility and and both parts of This the the fear of bringing children In the world but also the refusal the Refusal to admit the biblical truth that You have a lifelong obligation to honor Your parents your father and your mother You don’t choose whether to have that Obligation or not this is like you know It this is this this is both barrels Against the fundamental Assumption of Liberalism which is that you you choose Your obligations but you don’t choose Your obligations you don’t choose which Family you’re born into you you you you Don’t choose who your parents are or who Your brothers are or who are your Sisters are you don’t even choose where Your children are and so all of these in The end are are unchosen obligations and The the question is you know are you Strong are are you going to develop the Strength of personality the the power And the wisdom and and and and and and The ability to uphold these Responsibilities in a way that’s Impressive and classy and and and Powerful and and it can also be Magnificent you know you you get to a Certain age and and you’ve got

Um you know all of these Decades of of Um you know I think I think of my you Know my my aunt and uncle uh who who uh Uh they’re in their 80s now and uh Orthodox Jews in Israel and they uh uh They took a a um a a a drone photograph Of them with the you know 90 of their uh Their biological and adopted descendants Who came to like a picnic and you look You look at this and you say you know They they they they built an Empire they I mean they’ve begun to you know to Alter the face of the world with what What they did what about you are you Know you’re just gonna sit it out though That honor too you know I’ve been Thinking about Many of the Injunctions on the religious side as Moral efforts So faith for example You can pillory it as blind insistence That something that no one could Possibly believe to be true is true or You could say No faith is the courage that it requires To LEAP into the unknown and to wrestle With possibility itself And you could think of honor the same Way is that you know I read this book by Frank McCourt called Angela’s Ashes and In that book he talks about his father Back in Ireland they were very poor Irish family

And uh his father was a absolutely Unrepentant alcoholic who drank up every Cent the family ever made and had many Many children Number of whom developed very serious Illnesses as a consequence of the Poverty induced by the father’s drinking And some of whom died And Frank Had the wisdom even as a young man to Sort of divide his father into two parts There was sober useful productive Encouraging morning Father and then There was night time in binge father and He did everything he could to extract Out the encouraging patriarchal Spirit From the best that his father had to Offer and it seems to me that that’s Something like honor You know and to honor your parents to Honor your wife to honor your siblings Is to Is to have the best in you serve the Best in them it’s something like that It’s active right it’s it’s it it Requires effort like courage requires Effort It’s it’s not something you do blindly And foolishly and so when people say Well my parents have done things that Make them less than honorable in my eyes I mean there’s two rejoinders to that The first is well and what makes you so Perfect

And so who exactly is it Within you that’s doing this judging And second You have an obligation to work as hard As you can to Foster the best in other people and that Would include your parents and your Siblings and the people that you were Close to that’s something you really Work out and that’s the honoring You know when my wife and I got married To speak personally for a a bit one of The things we did decide was that We were going to Honor each other as husband and wife and So We try Very hard for example not to put each Other down particularly in public and Not and that wasn’t because we weren’t Often irritated with one another because Obviously if you live with someone Irritation emerges it’s because you have A duty To honor your wife or your husband And if you don’t uphold that Duty then You denigrate the relationship and you Make yourself look like an utter fool Too You know if you don’t treat your wife With a certain amount of respect well First of all It it it does her no good but it also Does no you no good you entered into the

Relationship You have a moral obligation to Keep it as pristine as you can in your Public utterances And that’s part of the necessary Responsibility that provides a scaffold For the relationship Same with your parents Yeah I I I I I would add that it’s not Just the public utterances I mean you Know there’s everybody at this point has You know the the these Hollywood images Of uh you know of uh uh Happy marriages With you know which just sort of like Magically everybody’s having a good time And unhappy marriages where people are Are are are you know are are are are are Constantly insulting and abusing one Another and what what what is missing From you know this simplified version of Marriage is that You know you you simply don’t have to Say everything you think all the time And part of Um an integral part of uh liberalism is The you know I want to express myself I You know I I feel something so I want to Say it I want to tell people with with The the Assumption being that that if You say everything you think then you Know then you’ll persuade the other you Know your your your wife or your parents Your persuade the world of you know the Truth of your view but you know

Empirically we say you know we can see That’s that that isn’t remotely true if You say everything you think all the Time Um then what happens is that that you Hurt your wife over and over and over Again and you bring her to the point Where she you know even the things that She could do you know that you wanted to Do she she finds painful she starts Hurting you back I mean the the the the The whole traditional view that honoring Means sometimes you don’t say the truth Okay I’m not saying that you you know You should lie to your wife or or your Husband God forbid I’m not talking about That but I’m I I’m saying that that for Every 10 criticisms that you know come To you of you know about your wife It might be that only one of them is Worth saying and that one maybe Shouldn’t be worth saying it shouldn’t Be said now maybe it should be said Later well there’s actually he said you Know no there’s empirical data on that So if you track the utterances of Married couples and then you use Foreign The utterance tracking to predict the Longevity of the relationship It was found that If the relationship deteriorates to the Point where there’s one negative comment For every five positive comments then

The relationship doesn’t maintain itself So twenty percent negative is too high But interestingly enough There’s a bound on the other end too Which is that if the positive to the Negative exceeds 11 to 1 the Relationship also tends to deteriorate And so it’s something like judicious Communication right you don’t have to Make a case that every time something Irritates you that turns into a war But you can’t be a pushover or a Or someone who is naively blind and Expect the relationship to maintain Itself as well so that this is you know This is actually one of the the central Arguments that uh that I make in in my Conservatism book which is that honoring Which which is purposely trying to the The the uh in in Hebrew the word is for For honoring the word is to literally Make someone heavy to to you know like Uh Um in English we can we can say uh uh The the certain statements or certain Words were uh were significant uh here We’re talking about Um uh making an individual significant By by making them waiting giving giving Weight to their words saying it was Important that you did that it was good That you did that this is actually the Key to creating a loyal relationship People feel people don’t feel loved if

They’re not being honored people don’t Feel good if they’re not being honored They if they’re not being honored they They they begin to hate they begin to Resent and So you can say this with respect to to Husbands and wives you can say this with Respect to children’s children relating To their parents but you can also I mean Take a look politically at you know what It what’s happening in America what’s Happening in other Democratic countries Where where the uh the competing Political parties the competing tribes No longer honor one another right and You know all you need all you need to do Is to you know go back to the uh you Know to to to the the Nixon Kennedy Kennedy debates from the 1960s or the The the the rate Reagan uh Reagan Mondale debates from the 80s and just Look look at those videos of the way They treat one another I mean it may be That in their hearts they hate one Another and they think they’re they’re Dangerous people but look at the way They talk they they they’re constantly Giving honor to the other side because They they they value the fact that that If the other side wins then they’re Going to be the loyal opposition they’ll Do their best to honor them until the Next election hopefully they’ll win I Don’t want to turn this into something

Like you know two two I uh uh um dreamy Or utopian but the difference between You know what that kind of politics and The politics we have today which Consists you know of this constant Constant drumbeat of insult abuse Slander dishonoring one another look It’s just like a marriage if you want a Divorce if you want a civil war then Just keep dishonoring the other person Just keep focusing on everything that’s Wrong with them and you’ll you’ll you’ll Get your divorce you’ll get your Civil War so you’re construing honor as Something like respect and encouragement I mean one of the things that BF Skinner Who was famously able to train animals To do almost anything He pointed out that the most effective Behavior modification technique to put It rather coldly was the use of targeted Reward and so he would watch animals and When they did something that was Approximately Appropriate to what he was trying to Teach them to do he would reward them And so for example if he wanted to have A rat Walk up a little ladder and do a dance On the top he just watched the route Until it got close to the ladder and When it got close to the ladder in its Cage he’d give it a food pellet and then It would hang around the ladder more and

Then eventually it would put a pop on One of the rungs and he’d give it a food Pellet and soon he could get the route Climbing the ladder and doing a little Dance on top and all sorts of Complicated things and he knew he knew That you could shape Behavior with Threat and punishment but that reward Was much more Effective although it required of a Large degree of attention one of the Things I suggested to my clinical Clients and in my lectures was that You pay very close attention to the People around you And whenever they do something that you Like to see them repeat You let them know in some detail what it Was that you observed and that sounds Like the manner in which you’re Construing honor in addition to the Respect element which is to give credit Where credit is due yeah this is this is This is not simply give credit where Credit is due because uh you know as we Said before Um if you’re if your mindset is you know I’m judging I’m critiquing then you’ll Easily destroy I mean you’ll you’ll just Destroy your your parents worthiness in Your own eyes your wife’s worthiness and Your own you’ll just your political Rivals worthiness in your if that’s what You’re doing you’re saying well I’m

Going to judge where it’s due all the Time you’re not you’re not going to make It you’re you’re not going to succeed in In doing the action the biblical action Of giving honor the biblical action of Giving honor is it is uh It is to elevate someone to make them to To make them feel like they are Important and worthy not for you to Judge whether they’re worthy for you to Make them feel that they are worthy and The I mean I I the the the uh the Comparison with with the rats is useful But in this case we have we have this This is going taking place in both Directions between a husband and wife if Each of them If if I tell my wife why she’s Worthy But she she comes away feeling loved and Strengthened and important and if she Does it back to me then I come away Feeling loved and strengthened and Important and and and and guess what the The the the the single relationship that Bond Is is when it’s strengthened from both Sides in that way it it it becomes Something astonishing I mean even you Know the the whole thing about why you Know I don’t feel attracted to my wife You know of course you don’t feel Attracted to your wife because because You know you you were uh uh you you were You were a young person and you’re in

The the the the throes of uh hormonal Ecstasy and that lasts for a few years But the the key to an attraction is if If you keep making her feel worthy then She’ll continue to feel attracted to you And if she keeps making you feel worthy Then you’ll keep feeling attracted to Her there’s a there’s a direct Connection between honoring somebody and And and they’re feeling a desire for you And I I’m I’m including physical desire All kinds of desire and you know all of These things are are Um kind of Secrets of the traditional Society which then Wipe wiped Away by the you know along With the biblical tradition the the you Know the assumption that we don’t have Anything learned to learn from scripture Or or or from tradition basically is the Key to our inability to to maintain Long-term any kind of loyalty so if you Were going to extract out a message To young people and perhaps not just Young people who are watching and Listening from your work in relationship To how they should conduct their life I Mean we’ve been touching on that the Entire conversation Um what what would you tell them in Relationship to conservatism rather than Liberalism or Or God forbid let’s say Marxism why tilt In the conservative direction if you’re

Young the most important thing about Tilting in a conservative direction is That you yourself have to Have to lead a conservative life right I’m I mean there’s importance in voting For conservatives but this is this is Not the key to the to the issue the key To the issue is if you’re voting for Conservatives but you’re leading a Liberal life you’re you know you’re 33 Years old and you’re living with a you Know you’re living with a woman year After year you go to the beach on the Sabbath you’re not a member of any Congregation you you don’t read Scripture you’re a thousand miles away From your parents so you don’t you don’t Inherit anything from from the community That you grew up in because you don’t go To a congregation you don’t have a new Community that you inherit from you talk To your parents you know uh on Thanksgiving or I don’t know once a Month this this whole construct is a Liberal life it is a life in which Nothing is conserved and nothing is Transmitted from one generation to the Next it doesn’t make any difference how You vote if your personal life is one Which you’re not part of the chain of of Transmission in a hierarchical society In which you learn to honor people who You didn’t necessarily choose and and And and you you know as you get older

And you you uh uh you get wiser and you You accomplish uh real things by Creating a family Um as as you get older you you yourself Become honored you yourself become Somebody’s who’s worthy of that kind of Honor which means that you feel good About your life Which there isn’t any any other way to Do it other than than in this way I Believe right so it’s not a political Issue fundamentally what you’re putting Forward it’s and it also seems to be Commensurate with this idea that Psychological well-being which is a weak Word it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s Happiness in the more classical sense I Would say which had ties to Virtue is Something that’s practiced locally Practice personally practiced within the Family practiced within the broader Community and so forth and all these Nested hierarchical structures And that that That’s really the essence in some sense Of Conducting yourself in a sustainable and Traditional Manner and the utility of That is that you actually get a full Life and maybe you can live in a some Degree of productive peace and harmony With other people which you know is Probably preferable to horrible conflict And War

All of that’s true and in our current Moment I mean it it’s always been true But in our current moment you know with With where the alternatives are are Deracinated liberalism or or a a Marxism Whose purpose is just you know really is To destroy all of the inherited Structures and knowledge that that have Come to us from previous generations you Know I I just I I can’t see it I can’t Understand how young people or even old People you know who’s Um who whose kids went away to college And never came back you know why why not Why not try a uh a conservative Congregation and Um and and and and and see whether that Can Uh give you the kind of flowering that That you you know you’re looking for but You don’t have any other way to get it I I don’t I I think this is the best thing that Anyone can do to fight the cultural Revolution and the woke Madness Is to uh to to find a Christian or a a Jewish or some other Um uh congregation in which you can be Ex experience inheriting and honoring Honoring and inheriting yourself and be Be a part of that that’s You know if if if people don’t do that Um the the there there isn’t there isn’t Much of a future well that’s a that’s a

Salutary place to draw this conversation To a close I would say uh I’m going to Talk to for all those who are listening And watching I’m I’m going to talk to Dr Hazoni for another half an hour on the DW plus platform I use that time to Wander through My my guest’s biography I’m very Interested in what sets people on a Particular path and also interested in Sharing What you might describe as The wisdom of success with as many People who are inclined to listen and Watch and so that’ll happen on the daily Wire plus platform In the meantime thank you to all of you Who are watching and listening your Attention is much appreciated and thank You Dr uramazoni for Speaking with me today and uh for Sharing your thoughts with With the listening and watching audience Much appreciated sir My pleasure thank you Hello everyone I would encourage you to Continue listening to my conversation With my guest on dailywireplus.com