Patrick Bet-David, Tom Ellsworth, and Vincent Oshana are joined by economic and Harvard University professor Roland Fryer as they discuss how lazy policies have ruined DEI.
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Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
What do you think about Dei see I think Of these things all the same for me it Is about Talent optimization okay that's It it is putting the best people in the Best job and now we have to figure out What what it means to be the best person But you know when it comes to Dei being A training to have me be more sensitive Here on the podcast I don't think that Has much effect at all if Dei is you Know what we should um have better Technology to find talent in hidden Places in America that we don't already Have that I'm all for right so for Example um uh there was a medical school That the typical way they were admit Admitting students was that they would Have 75 people they thought were Interesting they'd fly them up to campus And they would interview all of them and They'd pick 40 out of that 75 I'm just Making up numbers here during covid they They couldn't do that because people Weren't flying up to campus and so what They did was just they zoomed with 3 or 400 people and that was the most diverse Class on many dimensions not just race And and gender that they'd ever had why Because many of those people never got a Shot to even get in the applicant pool Right and so that's what I'm talking About um when I went to uh my my um Third year graduate school I went to the University of Chicago and they were
Known for like Harvard at the time would Have 25 graduate students and they would You know they'd finish 25 graduate Students Chicago was known Some people thought it was bad I thought It was amazing to have 50 graduate Students in in year one and then they Would and the and the cream would rise To the top and they would take 25 in in Years two three and four Etc that is the Kind of thing I'm talking about Opportunity um and that's how I think About affirmative action at its best is That Dei at its best is that now the Terms have all sorts of baggage Etc I'm Ignoring all of that all I care about is That the kid whoever they are wherever They are that has really good Talent uh we find a way to actually Identify that Talent nurture it uh so That they can flourish should skin color Matter when it comes out to who we Choose to go into school should we Favor uh certain skin colors and give Them a higher score of likelihood of Getting to a school than those who are White not uh Alone at all but should be one factor Well no no what I mean by that is what Else people are a lot more interesting Than just skin color so what else if you If you're asking me the question all Else equal should we favor a you know Should we should skin color matter I
Don't think so but skin colors correlate With a lot of other stuff like income of The parents Etc so it wouldn't surprise Me that uh that uh skin color would Matter for admissions but not on its own It has to come up with other stuff for Example if I'm not I don't I don't think Anyone should admit a very you know Obama's kids right they don't need Affirmative action I don't know if they Need it or not but they shouldn't get it Right my kids shouldn't get It um and so therefore should race be a Factor no not for my kids at all but uh For you know man man in the inner city Who grew up across the street from me Yeah yeah because because that race is Correlated with a lot of other things That are limiting his Potential it's all about Talent right like my daughters come home And ask me about race all the time now And uh they're getting older and I tell Them it's you know uh uh one part of a Person and there's but why don't you try To get to know the other parts too and Once you understand those other parts Then come back and and tell me how Important race actually was and that That's what I'm saying here we need to Focus on all the other Stuff yeah I'm I'm I'm trying to see uh Okay so why though maybe go a little bit Deeper why do you think that's important
For us to for us to consider that and Let's just say we have a cross theboard Golf score five categories Johnny has a Better GPA than Bobby uh by slight whatever 4.5 4.4 sat 1490 1440 okay Johnny on the golf score has Done the same amount of community Service as the other guy a little bit More you know when it comes down to math Scored on math slightly higher than the A little bit more but Bobby is a Hispanic from the inner city and Johnny's as white as they can get you Know what let's take Bobby is that fair Maybe why is that because if uh if what If the obstacles he had to overcome if You actually account for those then Maybe his score should be a perfect 1600 meaning what did you have to go Through to get Them right you can't you can't okay so Let me ask this other question okay we Have Bobby and Johnny okay uh Bobby is 68 260 lbs with a 41in vertical leap Runs the 40 in fourth four okay hence There's a guy named LeBron who I gave You the data on who he is it was easy Okay and he's he's Black on the other side Derek is 511 okay vertical leap 29 in run runs The 40 in 46 okay he busted his ass 24/7 Training and he loves the game of
Basketball should he be favored to go Into the NBA over LeBron I mean that's unfair because that Guy worked a lot harder because he he he Had to practice his shot more and I'm Being serious with you no okay but Combine scores are not uh great Predictors of NFL success anyway so what You and that's what they're doing when They interview the players right they're Trying to figure out do you what is this Person's work ethic but but LeBron has The better vote I don't care what color LeBron is he's the better guy to take Draft pick but LeBron hasn't trained as Hard as Derrick has well in this case Actually he did and no he didn't and and He's got great work oh then use a Different guy let's take a different guy Not a LeBron go to awami you know go to A I don't know take a Dwight Howard okay Let's go to Dwight Howard 611 jumps 40 In okay incredible body fast benches two Plates 25 times okay but partied hooked Up with girls never came to practice Didn't do his homework everybody else Did his homework everybody did his stuff For him he's been paid for a long time Then we have Derek should should Derek Be in the NBA instead of the white no of Course not because it it's not a factor That should overcome all no because the Reason why I ask this is because this Causes people to like like Elizabeth
Warren she to say she's a Native American and then later on they find to To be able to get into a school because On the application it would benefit for Me to say I'm a native amran and I'm not White to be able to get in what you're What you're describing are lazy Practices that I don't like either no One should like and the system is set up To be lazy practices well that's the System you're asking me what's ideal Right like and so I'm you're you're Asking me what my opinions are I mean we Can sit here and say this college does It wrong so we should throw the whole Thing out that's that's oneach I'm Saying I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm Trying to talk to a guy who's smarter Than me in this area more experienced Who is you're in it I'm not in it I'm Simply questioning and wondering if There is a better way because my entire Career has been in in the world of Business is what markers when I'm hiring Somebody is the best instead of oh he's Hispanic he's probably going to he's This he's probably he's white or let's Say I can't do that in business you Can't do that anywhere no one's asking For but they're doing it in schools and They're wrong I've said that like three Times they're wrong but but in your in Your sports example right if you say Well here are two people who are
Extremely close one of them is in the Gym every day and the other is doing the Things you describe then yeah if they're Extremely close if their verticals were A millimeter off then I'm going to go With a person who's in the gym because I Think they're going to have a longer Career but it's not like any of these Factors outweigh all the other on right The only difference is how do you okay So help me understand how do you judge That okay how do you judge capacity how Do you judge a the the you know I do an Event once year called The Vault Conference we'll have 10,000 people at The event this year in Palm Beach and One of the things I talk about is the Underachiever achiever overachiever Nothing new everybody's heard about the Underachiever achiever overachiever but To me the way I explain it I explain it With the capacity of the individual Necess you may have more capacity than Me and I may be an overachiever and you May end up being an underachiever and You could still kick my ass exactly I Don't know if that made sense you could Still beat me as an underachiever so we Can measure that we don't have the Technology for that I well I think that We we don't measure it well right there Is no way to measure it though I you Know I think the the psychologists are Are trying to get really good at trying
To understand stuff like grit resilience And these other factors that are really Important beyond the more traditional Measures like education or test scores For example let me give you an example I Think you'll I think hopefully this will Help um one of the things I I've been Working on is trying to understand what Actually predicts economic Mobility it's The thing I care probably the most about Right um and what we did was something Really really simple we went out and we Took we we we found um uh a couple Thousand people all of which who had Been born into poverty let's imagine 30% Got out and 70% didn't we spent hours And hours with all of these people Trying to understand their lives Etc so We could Predict why is it that some people got Out and other people Didn't what we found was that education Was the number one predictor not too Much of a surprise there's been lots of Work on that but we then what we found Was like five out of the next seven were All Psychological Locust of control which we Talked about earlier you know do you Internalize or do you externalize things That that happen in life um grit Resilience Etc and so um it's not Perfect at all I agree with you it's Really hard to measure capacity but why
Aren't we but but the amount of effort That we're putting into trying to Understand that which all of us think is Extraordinarily important relative to Trying to figure out exactly which Threshold for SATs is way off the the Future of talent optimization has to be In thinking through those types of Skills and those types of capacities Okay but to me uh I'm with you so I'm if I'm running a school and a person ends Up coming up with a study that shows Yeah cops are not worse on blacks than They are on Whites and then you bring that study to Me and I respond back to you that this Is and you said wow you're Pretty fast read it how'd you read it I Didn't have to read it I just saw it's 150 page you said how many pages was it I don't know 160 Pages you said some big Numbered 100 pages so then I come back And you're like yeah no you're full of I thought you were a scholar and an Educator and a professor who can Entertain opposing ideas got it then That goes against what I'm trying to Pitch to the African-American Community To the Democratic party to the political Side which is what the school uses many Times and it goes against me then I can Come back and find a way to find Something to fire you and get rid of you Although you may be one of the best
Professors we have on campus so then Then it risks a guy like that because You're you're no longer part of that you Know hey you got in here because of Affirmative action you better be loyal To us what are you doing you got in here Because of that you know you owe us this You better stay like this or else you Know what are you doing you're playing With fire don't forget you owe it to us We did this favor for you and then You're like wait this reminds me of what Happened 400 years ago so so let me get The straight so now you're using Affirmative action against me because You felt sorry for me dude don't don't I I go there me I'm not saying you maybe You didn't go there but I went there for Myself I've never liked that I never Liked hey we want to drop off some Turkey for you guys on Thanksgiving cuz You guys are poor I didn't like that it Bothered me Stephen A said something About his mother where he said when my Mom was on welfare for a couple months She was disgusted by it she couldn't Wait to get off of it she couldn't wait To get off of it right there's a lot of People that are using the system to get On it so all I'm saying is if you create The guidelines for me to be accepted Based on low standards no problem I'll Take advantage of it yeah and that'll be A guideline that I'll be looking for no
Matter where I go and work at a job in Corporate world no matter what it is That's all I'm saying yeah no I Understand the incentives but but Nowhere in what I said I talked about Low Standards none none I I I I'll move my Flight back we can we can see all day Let me tell you so if we go with your Guidelines I I say you pick a basketball Team I'll pick mine you probably would Pick Mugsy Bogues you probably would Have SP web oh my God you you would Probably let me keep put on some Gangster put on some gangster probably Who else do you want me to go to you Would probably have these guys that made It in in the NBA that should have never Made it and then I'll go and say forget About I'll take the guys I don't care Who it is I'll bring Shaq I'll bring all These guys I didn't know you were Against work Dom I didn't know you were Against work at Bing I am but that's the Point but for me when it comes down to That I think at the end of the day Unfort no matter how much I love Baseball and I love baseball right no Matter how much I love sports guess what Man you shouldn't put me on your team Because you need to meet a requirement Of a middle eastern that's that's not a Good requirement I'm just giving you That advice hear if you all of a sudden
Start getting into buying a team and I'll call you and I'll say hey Roland do Me one favor bro let me play running Back one day you shouldn't do that no I'm not going to do it I'm telling you Right but I'm Middle Eastern I came from A divorced family I I was poor bro give Me a freaking break I'm going to give You a break by letting you watch But but but you don't become Kobe Without both you don't become LeBron Without both I'm okay with that right And so that's that's what I'm saying you Got that's why you have to measure both You don't become great like I I study These guys Muhammad Ali I teach a class On on black geniuses I study these guys And all of them have the and they have Both so that's why the whole debate and I think it's fun to have here and stuff But I I do worry that people in the in In the world who are making these Decisions are sitting here treating it Like or it's got to be an and you got to Be looking at at everything and you're Right we universities are doing it in a Lazy way the universities don't have the Data sets they don't actually know what The grit and resilience of the Applicants are that's the problem and so They have to rely on these silly metrics That they're using I'm saying let's Change the whole system I'm not paying Attention to what they're doing now cuz
It's wrong you and I agree on that let's Change the whole system let's actually Collect much better data on these Applicants let's have them do very Different things and then we can make The right decision for the most talented People not just the people who work Hardest not the people who have higher Scores and refuse to go to class because We've met those people those Geniuses to Who refuse to do anything it's the combo It's the and it's the Kobes it's the Mamba mentality I'm heartbroken knowing The fact that if you ever became the Owner of I wouldn't be a running back You broke my heart no no I feel Discrimination think's trying to you Should cuz it was Applied and I'm okay with it and I'm Okay with it that's my point I love you But I don't care if you're okay or not It it happened Brother I'm going to go home and cry to My mom this is not this is not a good Situation I'm in so I can no longer Remain in today's Democratic party Tulsi Gabard say she is no longer a Democrat a Potential tulsy gabed VP where we are Being told that we just have to comply And go along with whatever they say American people are smarter than this However we must remain Vigilant to Recognize their propaganda for what it Is pure life unfortunately we live in a
Time where free speech is under attack Whatever they say goes and we we have to Just fall and the people who suffered Under your reign as prosecutor you owe Them an Apology taking on KLA Harris on a debate Stage before I would look forward to Doing that Again so if you like this clip and you Want to watch another one click right Here and if you want to watch the entire Podcast click right Here
